The Finish Line for your Phono Cartridge- Stylus Wear by Mike Bodell

No, I asked him how he was educated in reference to critical thinking. I sat through about 15 workshops last year and critical thinking among other things was beat into us. Obviously, BendBound is highly educated, someone taught him about critical thinking. BendBound was blaming the educational system because some people balked at cartridges wearing so quickly after reading his article. I think Mike did a fine job and I don't disagree in general with what he is saying about stylus wear.

 

If we look at Nagaoka mp-300 that use the same cartridge body and a boron cantaliver as the mp-500.
But the mp-300 has a eliptical diamond and the mp-500 a Line Contact diamond.
And both of them has the same recommend VTF range from the manufacturer.

 

Tullman, now you are misrepresenting what I said. I added several caveats, and cautions that I did not elaborate on. I blamed no one. Please resist the temptation to demonize what I wrote or my intent.

 

I play 45s seldom enough I can just keep track of how much time it’s been and click accordingly.

I do play 45 rpm 12” singles, EPs, and 45rpm 2LP reissues a little more often, and for those, I count a side as a side, even though they take less time per side, figuring what we really care about is the distance traveled more than pure run time.

 

Good point.

 

Bill, of course, you are spot on, while I have a slightly different take on the issue of a “paradigm shift”, as I will develop in a moment.

The Shure research predates the invention of Micro-Ridge stylus tip shapes. Namika developed that tip shape in 1983. The JICO research with it’s variable wear hours by tip shape included ML tips. For that reason I singled out the ML tip shape in my post above. If so qualified at the VTF noted, I can understand where 1,000 hours of use to critical wear comes from. Yet even JICO with its ML tipped SAS publishes 500 hours as the tip’s useful life. However to broadly apply 1,000 hours to all advanced tip shapes runs counter to the published and still best available research.

The Shure, JICO and perhaps the incomplete Ortofon research represents the best available on the subject, done when vinyl sales were at their zenith, and development of advanced stylus tips was nearing an end. Cartridge manufacturers then had the capital for such research. The advent of the CD led to rapid demise of further research certainly. Yes, there has been additional development in cartridges themselves in design and materials. Yet stylus tips development has slowed, some firms are even returning to shapes they used prior, and virtually all modern tips are made of diamond of varying quality.

With respect to the history and design of modern stylus tips see this excellent article, entitled Diamond Life,” written by Yosuke Koizumi of Audio-Technica and published in 2017 in issue 13 of Stereo Magazine, a German publication. The article does discuss evolution in tip design and merits of each. Moreover it deals with the quality of diamonds used by various manufacturers. Unfortunately the article does not address diamond life despite the title.

See: https://stereo-magazine.com/archive/?tx_archive_pi1[article]=67115&tx_archive_pi1[action]=download&tx_archive_pi1[controller]=Archive&cHash=d9c2204bdbb62cb497dca571d72715ea

Also see at least the first 6 to 8 pages of this SHF thread on Advanced Stylus Shapes: pics, discussion, patents:

Advanced Stylus Shapes: Pics, discussion, patents. - Page 10- Vinyl Engine

Now on to the paradigm shift, that shift occurred in the late 1970s to mid-1980s. We know no additional research has been published and made available to consumers since then. As noted in the discussion on evolution in Ortofon advice in owner’s manuals on stylus wear, significant ambiguity has been introduced to the market as is abundantly evident today. I cannot speculate on why that has occurred, everyone has to sort that out for themselves.

VDH-1 stylus tip was developed in 1978 by Dutch designer A. J. van den Hul. His hybrid line contact stylus tip employing crystal aligned gem quality diamonds has been touted to last 3,000 hours. For the record Shure did not cover this tip shape since their research was published in 1978. I read but can’t find where VdH said earlier stylus tips were made of inferior diamonds, even ceramic, that lasted only 400-500 hours. He used gem quality diamonds and asserts that they last to 3,000 hours. I wonder if when the “will last forever “ CD was killing vinyl folks glommed on to this notion that advanced stylus tips with high quality crystal aligned diamonds extend greatly wear life. I really don’t know but certainly the hypothesis that they do was been cemented into large segments of the vinyl community. Then for cartridges manufacturers to adjust their advice on wear at the same time, effectively undercutting all research to undermine the established paradigm. Long life became the new normal. That new normal is what I investigated.

In the SHF thread provided above, photographs and discussion show that VdH’s stylus tip shape and that of Expert’s Paratrace are essentially identical. I know that Expert manufactures and uses gem quality diamonds and likewise aligns the diamonds on their hardest face. Expect told me to expect 500-600 hours of life on this retip, and at a minimum to have the tip evaluated for critical wear at that point.

 

There is a potentially significant factor of stylus lifetime that has not been fully addressed, but that I have commented on previously. The factor is related to "contact span" ie the distance between contacts at the lowest point in the groove. The absolute maximum span that can be used on Stereo records is 1 mil, but so far I have not seen a new stylus of any type that has a span wider than 0.8 mils, and most seem to start new at ~0.7 mils or smaller. As the stylus wears, this span shrinks, and eventually the contacts start to hit the radiused groove bottom. My expectation is that many folks continue to use the stylus beyond this point, accepting the resulting noise/distortion, hence the very long hours quoted.

Often I see the "finer" styli such as VDH, FG, ML, etc described as "reaching deeper into the groove" or perhaps avoiding contact with areas which have been worn by lesser styli. On the surface, this seems to be a good thing, and when talking about a new stylus it may very well be. But all styli wear, and eventually even the lesser styli reach "deep into the groove". What I see as the potentially significant factor in stylus lifetime is that if the "finer" styli actually do start when new with contacts deeper in the groove, ie with narrow contact span, then they would have less wear lifetime before hitting the groove bottom. This may account for the reduced lifetime estimates of these styli versus what we would expect based on their advanced shapes.

 

I posted a link 6 pages ago, but apparently few read it. Now I copy and paste. Abstract: In 2008 Shure states that a MR stylus' lifespan is 500 to 800 hours.


Shure V15 Type V phono cartridge longevity
Date Updated: October 16, 2008FAQ #2154
Question:
What is the usual lifetime of the Shure V15 Type V phono cartridge?I bought a Shure V15 Type V phono cartridge in 1983 and used it occasionally for less than 18 months before packing the turntable into its shipping box and storing it until October 2001.It now distorts terribly whenever their are any hard-edged bass guitar notes in any record it plays. This distortion affects higher pitches that are going on simultaneously in the music, such as voice, drums, and other instruments.I cleaned the stylus with Discwasher's SC-2 system, and in the SC-2 instructions ran across mention of "rubberoid" parts within many cartridges that the SC-2 fluid is designed to not harm. Since I know that rubber can get hard, I tried moving the stylus shank very slightly, and noticed that it seems fairly stiff, and doesn't move freely relative to the cartridge.
Answer:
The body of the cartridge can last over 50 years. The stylus tip will last 500 to 800 hours of playing time. The bushing that supports the stylus is made of a flexible material and will harden over time due to the ozone in the atmosphere.
Replacing the stylus returns the cartridge to its original condition.

 

500-800 seems plausible for a MR stylus.

 

Well here we have Shure staff stating a number of over 50 years for the cartridge. As suspected the only part to degrade noticably besides the stylus is the rubber supporting the cantilever, and that is switched out with the stylus anyway.

 

There is just way too much conjecture, too much dichotomy of experiences, overly general statements, hyperbole, referencing others post that (coincidentally) support a controversial argument for this thread to be useful.......

There are of course good posts, but the rest is just "typical internet" these where you can find something from either end of the spectrum and not know what to believe. The gamut of experience is just too vast for anyone who opened this thread as a newbie intent on learning any fact..... but again, that's on par with most everything on the internet these days. Anyone who has a keyboard can type whatever they want and word it in a way that feels like fact and that they have a wealth of experience on the topic -- and not just parroting what they read, or someone said that they decided was fact. (which is many times the case).

I almost commented a few pages back on the proclamation (which of course was worded as if fact and not opinion) that all conicals are in the 200-300 hour range. One thing though, I am seeing a common agenda and theme forming (over and over again) and it is helping me to understand agenda / motive of a few posters that I have not seen much of who are very vehement about their points on this thread. In addition to those with little to no experience posing as having the answer to most anyone's questions.............

Sorry Bill, I know the topic by nature is a good one, but there is just a lot questionable data being tossed about, and too many questionable contributors that I can't correlate to having the experience required to make the proclamations they have.

 

Still trying to digest the last few pages minus the detour taken and must state that I smell some truth in VD's post above.
Seems some minds are made without enough science toward the total picture?
So....I will continue to digest all of this.

 

Rather than giving a general criticism of the inputs of others, do you actually know anything about the subject that might be useful which you could share?

It's unfortunate the situation we're in regarding stylus lifetime, with so little real data to go on, and everyone having different experiences. There are so many variables that affect lifetime that it would be difficult to run DOEs which would answer the questions definitively. What I know comes from what I have read, filtered through engineering judgement, and applying my background in physics and materials science, layered on what I have learned through studying a range of stylus types that I have imaged. Ultimately I think I have learned more through studying the images than through any of my own experiences or the published and inconsistent experiences of others.

 

First off, I have offered posts in previous pages. However, it's like throwing a pebble in the ocean, with this thread it is too easily lost in the sea of experience gap / breadth that is on display here.

Not surprised that my post spurred a response from you though........

 

For me digestion was too often hampered by heart burn, even occasional outright hidden bones getting lodged resulting in immediate ejection required......

... pretty soon you just stop trying to chew, spit it out and say enough.........

 

But what can be done with that info, how can the layman interrupt it to relate to what will audibly damage an LP?
90+% of my collection is 20-50 year old plastic, sure there are many with light s/n and some with highs that may have compromised sections....but on the whole not that much.
Unless damage is my norm?

 

Ok, without getting into the political stuff (let's not get this thread shut down!) thank you for an otherwise great post.
There's cognitive dissonance when we learn that a $1,000.00 cart with a "special" stylus such as a Shibata or Fritz Gyger might a stylus life of 500 hours. Are line contact styli more robust in this regard?

Apologies if I've posted this story before:
I can say from my own experience with a Bang & Olufson MMC2 fine line stylus with diamond cantilever (original, not the new ruby cantilever versions sold on SoundSmith.com) that the low tracking force of 1.5 g was a benefit to length of use. So much so, that I neglected it and, did not realize the damage it was doing to the high freq's until I would replay a track after playing it once. Meaning, it sounded great the first time. Then when re-playing I heard some slight high freq's were gone. You might not notice it. But I noticed it. Took it to Peter and he admitted "you play a LOT of records!" "Yes, it may be shaving off some of the high frequencies." There was NO distortion. Just a little, tiny lack of sparkle. Peter also told me that setting a tracking force too light will cause more damage than setting it too heavy, as the stylus will "shake around" in the groove, causing wear.

Are you referring to the Decca?

 

Yes indeed. I have actually found this discussion useful. These days if I glean even a single useful tidbit from an internet discussion, I am pleased. IMO this thread has many useful bits.

My post was not really talking about record damage, but I don't think anyone really knows for sure how worn styli damage records. There is a lot of speculation, but I have certainly not seen any scientific studies, nor even many useful tidbits. I can't offer much personal experience since I am careful to not play records with heavily-worn styli.

 

Not sure if you were addressing me or Bill Hart. On the life span for conical or spherical stylus tips, please see in the Finishing Line article, the link to SoundSmith where they reproduce JICO’s hours for the advent of distortion. You will see some incredibly low hours on tip life, in the range you note. Furthermore, spherical-conical styli are the most common. Frequency you see them imaged (see Ray Parkhurst’s image in the referenced article, and elsewhere) featuring a dark diamond tip. Those dark tips contain impurities and inclusions that collectively lower the Mohs hardness of those diamonds to 8-9. As a consequence they wear out sooner. In this case, they wear more quickly based on tip shape and diamond quality.

On the JICO hours for stylus tip shapes, that is to 3% distortion at 15kHz. In my case, I add 30% to those hours before I have my stylus tip checked for critical wear.

A spherical stylus made from gem quality (clear, no inclusions) will last longer by several hundred hours. However, not many are made from high quality diamonds because other advanced tip shapes reproduce music better. I trust the JICO and I am suspicious of most other resources.

If you really want to be confused see this link and post by ETI_5000: How long does a stylus last? .

To your point about what to trust, that is my issue as well. In my case, I do the best I can to provide useful information. I know in some links I have referenced, there has been open controversy on posted material. I wade through it, try to sort out the noise, file away the nuggets. What more can you do when there is a paucity of good research available to the consumer.

 

Yes, but again I don't see YOUR actual experience listed, or specific examples, names of cartridges you have played with your own hand, etc. I see in your profile you own one cartridge.

I currently own the following conical cartridges: Shure M44-7, Shure M44-G, AT33Mono, ATMono3/LP, DL-102, DL-103, DL-103R, Ortofon SPU Mono G, Ortofon CG25Di Mkii, and a 1 mil Stanton repro cartrdige I got from Esoteric... that was off the top of my head. (did you want me to photograph them?) And don't think I only own conicals, I own profile of all types - elliptical, shibata, microline and have experience with them all.

Most of these conical cartridges have well over 200 hours and don't show any signs of audible degradation. The DL-102 is near 600 hours from my calcs and the DL-103R is more. Sure, they have degraded, but not to my ear yet where it needs to be replaced. And please don't claim I don't have a resolving system or ear, that is a non-starter.

It's easy to throw links around, there is something on the internet for anyone, any argument you want to make. I am talking from experience, from a guy who is listening right now as I type to a 1954 RCA Red Seal Bizet's Carmen on an Ortofon SPU Mono G conical cartridge (which btw has an estimated 400 hours and sounds fabulous). I listened to 9 or 10 early 50's mono's today. I found your 200 hour assertion as utter nonsense.

I take more away from people with experience instead of newbies who either don't have the experience, or those who support their arguments solely from what they read, or reference only links that support their case, and don't pay any credence to people with experience telling them it is not what they've experienced.

 

Over and out, I am done responding on this thread - just as much from the too wide an experience gap represented, to the fact there seems to be a contingent of posters that will continually question and doubt, and it is a circular argument at this point.

 

I own several conicals, and in fact a couple of my favorite MMs have conical styli. This has been stated earlier, and indeed within Mike's paper, but I think some of the discrepancy of lifetime estimates lies in the definition of "worn out". From a purely geometric viewpoint, there are two basic wear-out criteria: mild increase in distortion and reduced HF response caused by contact widening; and increase in noise and distortion caused by groove bottoming. On the opposite ends of the spectrum for these two criteria are conicals and MRs. Assuming the same starting contact span, Conicals will have the shortest lifetime for contact widening, and longest lifetime for groove bottoming, while MRs will be exact opposite, ie longest lifetime for contact widening and shortest for groove bottoming. Again, this is purely from geometric perspective. So which criteria do you use to say when a stylus has worn out? Supposedly both failure modes will cause record damage, though probably from different mechanisms.

 

For the record I own 7,000 record albums and 2,000 singles and began playing 7” records I purchased when I was 13 in 1963. When folks were ditching their records for CDs, I accelerated my purchase of records.

My first turntable in the early 1960s was a Garrard Lab 80, and I used a Shure cartridges I could afford. Since then, I’ve owned Technics turntables with Ortofon Concorde cartridges, two different models, now gone, an Ortofon MO-30, and an AT I forgot the name of, all gone. I’ve owned four different B&O turntables, including the 1600, 1800 and TX-2, with four different MMC cartridges. I held on to these for an inordinate period, all gone.

I’ve owned several earlier turntables the name of which I’ve forgotten because they were forgettable.

Now I own a Rega RP-3, purchased when introduced, now with GrooveTracer mods all around, on that I use an Ortofon 2M SE mono cartridge. My main set up is listed on the SHF. I also use an Ortofon 2M Black. I own only three Ortofon cartridges now, and I’ve been loyal to them.

I do not feel the need to layout my history in owned equipment here. Nor am I constantly changing out equipment. I’ve slowly upgraded over the decades to components that work for me. Sorry, I don’t feel the need to own 10 different cartridges. I play music. A decent cartridge makes that happen.

 

Seems some folks on this forum place a LOT of emphasis on the data entered into a user's profile. It's pretty easy to say anything you want in a profile, and make folks believe you're something you're not. It's also pretty easy to place only the most relevant data, or even none at all. I never look at profiles because of this, instead listening to what people say as a gauge of what they know and how they can contribute. Knowledge, critical thinking, and desire to advance the learning on a topic are what is important to me, not what a person owns or claims they own.