The Finish Line for your Phono Cartridge- Stylus Wear by Mike Bodell

Sso real world experience is of less import, to you, than talking a good game?

 

No, I think you misunderstand, since I meant the exact opposite. Words are cheap and unless there is real substance in them can be misleading or even incorrect. Real world experience is of high value, though that experience does not need to be direct, ie if someone learns from another, the knowledge they pass on is still valuable. It's just difficult to tell if people actually know anything or are making it all up, and data in someone's profile will tell you very little in the way of determination. Listening to what they say, and judging if it's true based on what you already know, is the only way I know to determine if they are a good source of information.

Real world experience, even if true and conveyed in a forthright manner, ultimately must be interpreted in order to glean anything useful from it. The majority of folks who have personal experience don't have the skills to interpret it so that it becomes information rather than just observation, or worse they interpret the data incorrectly. It is knowledgeable folks who are able to take real data, either from their own experience (best) or learned from others, and apply critical thinking and analysis to distill that data into information which they share with others to advance learning, who I value most highly.

 

@BendBound have you found any info or research on whether stylus wear varies based on playback speed, specifically 33 vs 45 rpm? If not, I’d still be curious on your thoughts on this.

 

Yes, but they are now officially referred to as "London" cartridges since John Wright took over the company.

 

Does anyone have any pics of the stylus of one of these? I see from some specs that the standard cartridge is a spherical/conical, while an elliptical is also offered. I'm curious if they have done anything in the design of the stylus which would increase its wear life to give the big numbers that owners claim.

 

I couldn't find any pictures of a Reference stylus. Here's information on the London cartridge line I found.

 

Thanks. The spec I saw didn't include the Super Gold or Jubilee models.

Does anyone have any experience or reliable anecdotal evidence of the lifetime of any of these?

 

If I'm reading you correctly, you seem to favor how the info is presented?
Judging not only the info presented by a poster, but also your perception of their intellect...or style of intellect.
Perhaps it all comes down to who can post the best links?

 

I think you're misunderstanding me again. In this internet world there are many folks having a wide range of language skills, and you need to be very tolerant in order to include folks with good information. It is the information that matters, not how it's presented.

 

The problem is that there are so many variables like type of diamond or material used for a stylus, VTF, anti-skate, VTA, Azimuth, and TT used. I am no expert and I do not own a microscope. However, Peter Lederman does have expertise and tools to identify stylus wear. If he said HIS styli last a 1000 hours if properly setup and not misused, then that is what I will go with for my cart.

 

And they indeed may last that long. I have seen no data either way. Would be great to hear from Peter to know what he looks for when he says a stylus has worn out. I see only two objective criteria for wear-out: contact width in play direction,which if it gets too long will cause high frequency distortion; and contact spacing at bottom of the groove, which if it gets too short will cause groove bottoming. The contact length is not easy to measure, and the increase in distortion may be subtle. Unfortunately this may be the factor that causes high frequency damage to records, and for some stylus types this happens much sooner than groove bottoming. The contact spacing is easier to measure, and indeed can be estimated looking at a front view. For some stylus types, the only real wear-out mechanism is groove bottoming, so that's what I'd expect is the most common thing to look for, but this mechanism happens much later than contact widening on some stylus types. For sure, if groove bottoming is the criteria used, then the stylus lifetime would be much longer than if contact widening is used.

 

As Bill said, Peter doesn’t want to be involved in an internet debate. Peter Lederman is as highly qualified as there is when speaking about styli and carts. PL is extremely fussy about the performance of his carts and wouldn’t tell people 1000 hours if it wasn’t so. No doubt there is wear the minute one starts to use a new stylus but for me use should be 1000 hours.

 

So when challenged regarding cartridge experience to back up the links you've been posting, you tell us how many LP's you own, how long you've been doing it, etc......... I rest my case. Then, dodge the topic by disparaging others, and taking the high ground, against those who use the profile to share their equipment....

My point was I take more stock in experience, less in the ability to use Google and pick and choose the links you want to call fact. I can find links to support any case these days on the internet, that is why it is valuable have people with experience to help balance.... which you seem to downplay. Odd.

No wait......... not odd, typical, and why the internet as a tool to find fact is such a poor tool these days.

 

Yes, it is very transparent that this is the view.

Downplay people because they share their equipment in their profile, strangely turn their experience into a con.... LOL.

Yet, themselves have an EMPTY profile, 40 posts on the board, yet blew in here claiming to be the end all resource who has all the right answers.

 

Yes, with you being a newbie and all I can see how you are hungry and devouring information at this point in your development. I get that..........

 

I find equipment lists in profiles useless as well as they are quite meaningless, but filled it out here anyway as it seems important to some.

I wouldn't mind seeing the list of equipment Ray uses to compile the fantastic images he has created, which are some of the most revealing of stylus wear I've seen anywhere.

 

Exactly. And that is the main goal, not to cause audible damage beyond normal wear.
Without proof to that point this all becomes just parlor chat.
Useful to the point of making us aware that what we think of as useful life may not be. We just need to be more mindful of sonic degradation.

 

Equipment lists by themselves, yes I agree, anyone can type whatever they want --- and in fact I have deleted mine periodically to prove a point.... but on the flipside using someones equipment ownership AGAINST them and as a negative......... hmmm. (not saying you did that....)

To me it is most about experience more than anything --- bu it is hard to have experience without equipment. Unless, of course, you are like many whose information comes from reading and Google, and call that "experience"

 

Experience is a collection, "Bales of memory like boats in tow", as Bruce Cockburn so eloquently put it. A list is but a mere snapshot taken on one's journey through this hobby. That snapshot says no more about the journey than the list says about one's experience.

Just sayin...

 

Imagine that, you choose to side with the person that makes, sells the product and has to guarantee its performance!!! LOL .............

......... and not deterred by all the "expert" opinion flying around this thread saying otherwise??

We / you are quoting what Peter has said, and what may even be on his website --- so by association isn't he already part of the "internet debate?"

Maybe a better approach is to say Peter stands behind his estimates and guarantees, and doesn't choose to be part of a specific Hoffman thread debate featuring all of us "experts." For that I understand and can't blame him.....

BTW, present company included as part of that sarcastic "experts" remark above - I am not a cartrdige / stylus expert either, never claimed to be --- but I am an extensive user with many "compared to what" scenarios and many hours logged with different types of styli. (many).

I wonder what the others in this thread would classify themselves as? Stylus / cartridge engineers / experts? Users? Users with varying / extensive experience? Avid reader? Parakeet? Which one best describes you?

 

Personally I would describe myself as an alien.

 

LOL Choosing an option not already listed is completely OK!!!

I'm with you though.......

 

I would describe myself as a tinkerer/experimenter/gigolo with too many cartridges, everything from a Lyra Kleos at the top to an AT CN5625AL at the bottom. I've rebodied a couple and done modifications to a few, but as yet no needle transplants. I have a proper optical 'scope for looking at the stylus under high magnification, but interpreting what I see as far as wear goes is still largely quess work based on the visibility of the flats. With so many cartridges to choose from (over 40 at last count), I never manage to wear any out.

 

I think in fairness to @Ray Parkhurst (who probably joined the forum because he helped Mike on the article that started this thread) and @Tullman (who has been here quite a while and in my experience is a very moderate, thoughtful poster), we're all looking for answers--on the 'same side' if you will. The sources of information, short of setting up your own experiments, which would be time consuming, cost some real overhead and require some expertise in knowing what to look for, are pretty much what Mike laid out in the article.
Is Peter L. a trusted source of information? Yes, I'd say so. Sure, he has his own line of cartridges and his own views of what's going on, but he's a great resource for information about cartridges, generally.
To me, you try to gather as much info as possible and make sense of it if you can.
The user profile information here gives you some sense of what the person using the equipment has as a reference-- I'm not sure how much that tells you about what a person knows. (There may be folks on here who used to work on LP mastering who don't even play vinyl any more).
Among us-- there should be a certain amount of good faith. Nobody is pushing an agenda as far as I know. Tull's 1,000 hours based on Peter's advice sounds reasonable to me, but I think you'd have to plot a bunch of different data in a controlled way to know where that longevity fits into the overall scheme-- the conservative estimates, as noted (and referenced on Sound-Smith's website) suggest the JICO wear around 500 hours (based on 3% distortion at 15 kHz, which a member here rightly noted was not called out very clearly in our discussions, though it is in Mike's article).
I still go back to what I'm calling the "gap"- between these conservative estimates and what is claimed in the neighborhood of 2,000 hours. I think the truth is probably somewhere in between, but as I think everybody appreciates, there are a lot of variables (and those would have to be addressed in any new study if one were to be conducted in a methodical way).
PS: to answer @TheVinylAddict 's question about how I would classify myself, I probably say "informed enthusiast" without any pretension to guru status. I was a copyright lawyer for 36 years in NYC who did an awful lot of work in the music business. But the mindset of a lawyer is to be a detective and fact-gatherer; to rely on the expertise and knowledge of subject matter specialists and to present that information in a coherent way. Beyond that, I'm intellectually curious, and willing to learn. So, I'd disclaim "expert" status (in this context).

 

Yes, it's unfortunate not to get input from Peter, but I certainly understand why he would want to stay out of this discussion! Assuming you have good ears and a transparent enough system to hear when the sonics are going south, you should be good no matter how many hours you put on a cartridge/stylus. Once the sound starts to degrade, it's probably time to replace it, and hopefully that is at or above 1000 hours. Hopefully also it is true that your records are only damaged after such degradation is noticeable, in spite of a few anecdotes to the contrary.

You are saying the same thing I did, yet a few posts ago you seem to be implying that I used equipment lists against someone, even though I did not. It's odd how folks read what they want to, rather than what is written, but that has happened several times in this thread, and not just by you.

Yes, I agree that experience is valuable, though the majority of people can't do much with that experience. So often folks say something like "my experience was such and such, and although I have no idea why, that's the way it is". This was the case earlier in this thread with the "worn cartridge" posts. It was gospel to the poster, yet he could provide neither rational explanation nor support.

Personally I don't like to share my equipment list because none of it is very expensive, and that immediately gives those who place a lot of emphasis on equipment something to use against me. I've had the same turntable for almost 30 years, and same home-built tube preamp, power amps (though I do most of my listening these days on SS PA), and speakers for even longer. I find that a consistent equipment set, hand-tailored to my listening style, has been very helpful to my listening over the years.

This seems to be another case of reading what you want rather than listening to what a person says.

It's of course not a bad thing to go with the one guaranteeing the performance of what he sells. You can't get better than that, though I do still think that it's unclear if record damage might happen before that 1000 hr point. It's doubtful he's going to replace any records damaged by the many records played between 500 and 1000 hours, or perhaps he is that sure of himself? It might be good to ask him.

It's likely that I have far more experience with examining cartridges with (relatively) known hours on them, and correlation to sonics, than most of the folks on this thread. However, that does not make me an expert by far, so I'd list myself as an experienced user.