The Finish Line for your Phono Cartridge- Stylus Wear by Mike Bodell

The moving of the needle in it´s directions is done by the normal forces between the groove wall and the needle. When the groove angles are sharp more normal force is needed to move the needle, up to a point where the needle will mistrack. These higher friction forces are likely to be presented where the acceleration is max; at maximum groove amplitude. Maybe the indentation will be affected at these max amplitudes; I think I have seen some pictures that might point to this.

 

[QUOTE="BendBound, post: 21656543, member: 52452"

A guy I know was an inventor for Analogic Corporation dealing specifically in digitization from analog sources. The guy holds a ton of patents for A-D converters, most from the 1990s. He told me once that it only took one play of a test lp record to remove the highest frequency information on it. From that information I assume the vinyl record begins wear too. All I know here is what he told me, and I have written here all I know.

My take is that if records are repeatedly played on a critically worn stylus, accelerated groove damage occurs. That groove damage is progressive. The research in the Finish Line article bears that out. And I have too many records that look VG++ to even M that were played on a worn stylus tip. Most end up in the trash bin.[/QUOTE]

Depending on the needle I believe this guy could very well be correct.

 

Not trying to be argumentative, but this thread has me in a state of bewilderment.

BTW, the tire analogy does not work for me, they are easily visually checked, their life rating clearly stated by the manufacturer, and if you can't see the wear, there are mandatory annually performed inspections where others will do so for you. The auto is a necessity, audio is a hobby.

And do "we" know when rock wear translates into vinyl wear (sonically speaking).
Should we also track number of plays and replace the LP at a regular interval as well?

I want to do the right thing, but does anyone truly know what that is, how to translate all of this into a useful guide?
At what point does this hobby become too expensive to be viable?

Anyhoo….

 

Willie- I think the value of the thread, and the underlying article that is its subject, is to address an area that has been ignored as the LP survived and is now flourishing long past its originally intended market life. To me, it serves several purposes: to make users more aware that styli are not necessarily going to last the claimed 2,000 hours, that proper set up and cleaning are critical and that it does make sense to monitor playing hours (something I dismissed as too OCD but am now keeping track of via a tally counter).
You are right that evaluating stylus condition is not something that the average (or even astute) user can do at home. For me, the lesson is to have several cartridges and to send them out for evaluation which isn't terribly costly.
In terms of a solution, or hard and fast 'guide,' I'm not sure that's realistic. If you learned something from reading the underlying article-- I know I did-- it achieved one of its purposes. I think one of Mike's other goals in writing the piece was to call upon cartridge manufacturers to provide consumers with more information.
Twenty or thirty years ago, the LP was pretty much of a dead letter in terms of market and associated equipment. Folks playing records were diehards, luddites, etc. Now, there's a large niche market for vinyl playback. But, much of the learning, research and published studies are dated back to the heyday of vinyl when large companies were invested in the medium. You see a considerable drop off in the papers published by the AES on innovations in vinyl compounding, studies on stylus behavior, including wear, etc. There is a need for more in-depth, up to date information on this front. Mike's article is a pretty thorough, careful survey of the state of the literature and studies, up to a point. To do more, the industry itself would have to conduct and publish studies.
In the meantime, there is, as I said in my introduction (both of this thread and in a companion piece I wrote accompanying publication of Mike's article) a "gap" between first evidence of microscopic wear and when that wear critically affects playback and potential record wear. I suppose, from my perspective, the best you can do without further information after the initial 500 hours or whatever of playback is to pay more attention to the behavior of the stylus and have it checked. That's certainly what the literature Mike unearthed suggests. Cleaning after playback is another thing (which I haven't done). Is this too OCD? Perhaps. But it is a good set of data points to be informed.
As to the tire analogy, as I think I mentioned upthread, I changed out tires on high performance cars far earlier than their rated life and before the normal markers for critical wear were manifest. I did notice a difference in performance. Obviously, they are different questions and present far different risks. (Though if one were racing, I suspect you'd get an even more conservative view of tire wear given the performance and safety aspects involved in 10/10ths driving).

 

Thanks Bill for bringing the subject up....I think..
The truth is always good to know, but in the end do we have anything more that just string theory here?
And I would be shocked to see anyone spend the time in true scientific research of a format that so few are involved in.
I do expect 2,000 hours, although I have not yet reached that goal before the highs started to loose a tad of luster, yet I estimate that I have reached over 1,000.
I just need more time to digest all of this before I decide how to continue.
500 hours for a cart I find unacceptable at the price of carts I currently use. And I've already decided against LOMC because of the cost per play.
Oh well....

 

I don't know if Peter Lederman ever wrote a scientific paper on stylus wear, but he as a cartridge builder and stylus retipper, has decades of experience with styli and wear associated with it. Peter's rule of thumb is 1000 hours of wear before replacement. He also advocates frequent stylus cleaning and record cleaning.

I too, find it unacceptable that 500 hours of wear would need replacement. Aside from the wonderful sound and compatibility with my phono preamp, I chose a Soundsmith Hyperion because it has a ten year warranty on stylus wear. So for ten years I can send my cart in for worn stylus replacement with no charge. Even if damaged it would only cost me about 10% of the original price to have it repaired. I have adopted the tally counter to monitor use.

 

I believe when I last looked at Jico's table the 3% distortion figure was quoted at 15Khz which for most music recordings I'm aware of there is little or no information recorded at that frequency let alone if there are any listeners that could hear it. It's one little detail that I don't recall you Bill and Ray mentioning over the course of this fascinating discussion.

 

Morbius- the Jico 3% at 15kHz is definitely discussed in Mike's paper; I did a quick scan of the posts in this thread and you may be right that this is not spelled out in the postings- I think, at least to me, the point is that is arguably the beginning of wear that is measurable (whether or not audible) and coincides with some physical evidence of wear on the tip. The question, as I see it, is how far you can go from first discernible evidence of wear (under a microscope or as measured) to something that is more demonstrable- obvious distortion, mistracking or potential damage of the record. Thanks for highlighting that, though. I'd treat it as an 'early warning' and I guess it would suggest that the high frequencies are no longer being reproduced with the same aplomb as when new. When that becomes audible is another question, I guess....
That's my take. Mike, Ray or others might have a different view.

 

I believe there to be some indentation of the groove walls but given the large contact area of the finer shapes and the light tracking of less than 2 grams that these identations are miniscule.
Otherwise the friction on a moving stylus in a groove which is deforming around the diamond would be enormous in my mind.
But again, if I were shown a demonstration of it I would naturally be very interested in accepting those shown figures.

 

I think I mentioned it. While most music may not be at that frequency you should ask yourself how far you are willing to go.
Because how good are we at hearing 3% distortion? Should we wait until the whole record sounds distorted? Or until the first sign of it that you hear?
Its likely that distortion has been occuring for quite some time before then which is the dangerous part.
Id personally keep things safe and just replace it every year. Its not too much to ask for my expensive records.

 

500 hours - heck try seven minutes!!! I just posted on the forum about my new OC9ml/ii where the diamond fell of halfway through the first side of the LP!

I typed a lengthy reply earlier to this thread that I didn't get around to finish and post - it was about the time Slick was posting and had some of the same observations he did. Maybe I will finish that later.

I will say one thing - if there is a "shift" that now newer cartridges suddenly start showing shorter life, and 500 hrs starts to come true, I am either going to Soundsmith too, or selling all my vinyl and TT's and going to CD and HD Radio! These cartridges are already WAY too expensive for suddenly to hear now people are touting they last HALF as long as the manufacturers are saying. That is bad news for attracting new people to vinyl!

Then again, luckily my stylus have lasted longer than some of the general numbers bandied about earlier (without specifics I might add - I didn't see any names) . Plus there was also numbers being touted of 200 hours for a conical? Huh?

I really hope this is not the start of a trend to begin conditioning folks that, guess what, cartridges are going to last 50% less than the manufacturers having been documenting and telling you for the last X years -- and 80% less if it is a conical! Is that the direction these folks writing articles want to go, and really the message vinyl users need to hear?

 

Its a matter of truth, whatever it may be, not conveniance.
I believe Ive seen older user manusls for Ortofon carts stating the 500 hour rule too.

But lets look at it another way, 500 hours, thats 2 full records, every day, for an entire year.
Now it doesnt seem so bad anymore.
Its a hobby, a somewhat luxurious one at that. People spend 100s and 1000s of dollars on new golf clubs, skis or what have you every year to use primed equipment.
Vinyl is no different, and when it comes to preserving my collection a new stylus every year is well worth it for me at least.

 

You´re seem to be missing my point. To have these types of contact areas, for a new needle, the indentations must be large. But they can´t be for a spinning record. The contact areas are sort of a Catch 22.

 

Im not quite following. Why must the indentations be large?

 

Two records a day? Seem so bad to who, you got a mouse in your pocket? I play two records an hour many days.......

If you are trying to convince me this is the new norm, or even that it was an old norm --- I am not nodding my head in agreement in the background here. Both your experience and viewpoints / outlook differ vastly from mine!

And if it is truly the new norm, it feels like planned obsolescence then - manufacturers are capable of making cartridges last longer than the 200 - 500 hours being thrown around earlier. Many of us old timers know that.

 

Every year doesn't seem bad? To me it does. What is the retail on the cart you use?
Wear is occurring every time we spin, I have no doubt about that.
But at what point is audible damage being done? Not speaking only of measurable damage, but within the bounds of human limitations.

 

This was originally a PM to another member, who thought that I should share it here. No hard facts, just an impression/recollections from memories of the past.

"I was thinking about Ortofon’s progressive change of their owner manual regarding stylus life. It occurs to me, in hindsight, that this coincides with the same period that MC's were becoming more popular and expensive. During this time, the “High End” Audio press was touting the supremacy of MC’s and basically blasting MM’s. The Shure V15VMR, which is one of the best tracking cartridges ever made, was portrayed as being “old fashioned” and “obsolete”. Never mind that it happened to be much cheaper than the popular MC’s of the day and still remains popular today.

Letting users know that their stylus was good for only 500 hours would be a sure way to push more customers towards user replaceable MM’s.

Think about the few companies that do publish stylus life information. What do they have in common? They all happen to produce replaceable styli that are relatively affordable. Hmmm."

 

This continued discussion is excellent so thanks to all for that and for the penetrating questions. Questions are good, even if the 500 hour threshold drops us all into cognitive dissonance.

As Bill established, the article details my journey of discovery on what is the “truth”, while I totally get how uncomfortable the conclusions are to some folks or many. The article also was exhaustive as far as what I could find, and I’m a decent researcher. I spoke and email communicated with Steve Leung of VAS, who makes and retips cartridges. I spoke and email communicated with Mr. Wyndham Hodgson, owner of Expert Stylus & Cartridge. Mr. Hodgson has more experience than Mr. Leung and Mr. Peter Ledermann, probably together. I spoke and emailed many others in this industry. The article contains it all, in a narrative of discovery, if not shock.

Mr. Ledermann who admittedly is exceedingly busy did not return my emails or phone calls, while he did respond to an email Bill sent at my behest. Yes, Mr. Ledermann advises at 1,000 hours. He is alone in that, while he is also moving into selling his high end cartridge designs. He has in my opinion no incentive to shorten life for critical wear.

The idea that cartridge manufacturers are now shortening the critical wear life of stylus tips is not correct. Please return to an earlier post where I detail what Ortofon claims in owner’s manuals since the mid-1980s to the late 1990s. In the 1980s, Ortofon advised that stylus life was ~500 hours. Over that period, vinyl sales went from record (no pun intended) levels to next to nothing. But also in that period the much more expensive moving coil cartridges ascended into the audiophile brain. Along the way any mention of stylus life found the cutting room floor. Draw your own conclusions. I could but will not name several other high end cartridge purveyors that absolutely omit any mention of stylus tip life.

A lot of the questions posed here are actually addressed in the article. The article will stand up to repeated reading too since it is packed with nuances. If after you consume it you remain unconvinced, I respect that. My primary recommendation is to simplify have your stylus tip checked at about 500 hours. Full stop.

 

Are you suggesting manufacturers are capable of altering the physical properties of diamond and are purposely making them less durable? I am not understanding how this could be something either new or planned on the part of cartridge manufacturers. Diamonds behave the same now as they did in the ‘70s, in the ‘40s, in the middle ages, in antiquity... no? Or is that not what you are saying?

 

Soundsmith cartridges, especially in light of the possibly shorter stylus lifespans suggested in this article, seem like one of the best deals in hi-fi if you can clear the cost of entry (and assuming you actually like the cartridge, of course). A purchase price of $8000 for a phono cartridge is eye-watering, but when you consider the 10 years of free retips and think of it as $800 per year, it’s still a lot, but a bit more palatable, again assuming the cartridge sounds that good. Even looking at the carts lower in the range, when you consider the 2-year warranty and do the math on the 20% or less rebuild price, they become much more reasonably priced cartridges to own over time. It seems to me this article actually serves as a pretty good sales pitch for Soundsmith.

 

Thanks again for all of this, and I am convinced that wear occurs, always have been.
What I am struggling with is useful life.
Or perhaps more precisely where useful life ends and audible damage starts. Damage in the range of human limits.
And why do we stop at the cart?
If this has always been a truth then what we have in the respect of vintage vinyl, even the better examples, are more than likely damaged.
Why should we not also track number of plays of our plastic? Does it not wear even faster?
Should we also discard them after X number of plays as wear has occurred?
If this format and supporting gear is this fragile, then why bother?
If there is truth to this, then vinyl truly sucks! Spending $500 upwards every year (or less) for a rock, on top of all the other expenses, well....it's hard to accept for sure....for me.

 

$800 per year is good?
Then there is dealing with a warranty, sometimes manufacturers aren't that easy to deal with.
Wonder how they feel about a retip every year?

 

Like I said, $800 per year is still quite a lot (beyond my budget, by a lot!), but it’s less than you would end up spending per year to own some far less expensive (but still expensive) cartridges over the course of a decade. Even if you do get two years out of a $3000 MC cartridge and then get it retipped at typical retip prices, it’s costing you more per year than the Hyperion. I’m not saying it’s cheap, but it is a good value at its price point.

I have seen nothing but praise for Soundsmith as a company to deal with when it comes to service. I can’t see them turning their backs on someone who paid $8000 for their top-of-line cartridge. The way I read the description on their website, the 10 year retip service is not truly a warranty (as in, product breaks and manufacturer fixes it), it’s a service included in the astronomical purchase price as a selling point. I assume they inspect the stylus to confirm it needs a retip before they do it, and I’m sufficiently convinced they would be just fine with retipping it once a year if the wear is there.

 

I mean, I’m not buying a $3000 MC cartridge, either. My current replacement stylus is $150, and I’m in no rush to multiply that expense since it sounds pretty damn good to me. I just think if you are going to go four digits for a phono cartridge, and it turns out they do need to be replaced annually or even every two years, Soundsmith seems like the best deal on the market in those price ranges because of the relatively low maintenance cost. That’s all I’m saying.