The *Frank Sinatra* recordings thread

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Sean Keane, Sep 22, 2008.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Bob F

    Bob F Senior Member

    Location:
    Massachusetts USA
    Billy May is commonly credited with five of the twelve charts:
    1. Day by Day
    2. Five Minutes More
    3. Yes, Indeed!
    4. Paper Doll
    5. I've Heard That Song Before
    Heinie Beau is said to have arranged these seven (uncredited):
    1. Sentimental Journey
    2. Almost Like Being in Love*
    3. American Beauty Rose
    4. On the Sunny Side of the Street
    5. Don't Take Your Love from Me
    6. That Old Black Magic*
    7. Lover
    *I have one source (Nascimento Silva) which credits "Almost Like Being in Love" and "That Old Black Magic" to May. A different source (Lonstein & Marino) credits May with just "That Old Black Magic." Three other sources (Rednour; O'Brien & Sayers; Where or When Database) attribute both songs to Beau.
     
  2. paulmock

    paulmock Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hollywood, CA
    Suffice to say, that's 1/2 of the album ghostwritten. WOW!
     
  3. jtaylor

    jtaylor Forum Resident

    Location:
    RVA
    Thanks very much, Bob.

    The BYU Capitol Manuscript Archive apparently has full scores of all 12 songs and tells a slightly different story.

    May: Yes, Indeed / Paper Doll

    Beau: American Beauty Rose / Don't Take Your Love From Me / Sentimental Journey / Sunny Side of the Street / That Old Black Magic / Lover

    Skippy Martin: I've Heard that Song Before / Day by Day / Almost Like Being in Love / Five Minutes More

    The 5 volume Index is now online in PDF form. This information was put together shortly after BYU received the manuscripts in 1967 and each entry is usually incomplete. However, recent work has been done with the archive and spreadsheets for several individual artists have been assembled and also put online. There is one for both May and Sinatra. The information cited above comes from the May file; the Sinatra file credits May with "Don't Take Your Love" and "Day by Day," but at least according to this archive, Martin arranged 3-4 songs, May 2-4, the rest Beau.
     
  4. Bob F

    Bob F Senior Member

    Location:
    Massachusetts USA
    Jordan, Why would there be a discrepancy between the two files, if they come from the same manuscripts?
     
  5. jtaylor

    jtaylor Forum Resident

    Location:
    RVA
    That part certainly troubles me as well, Bob. No idea. Human error?

    On "Day by Day" and "Don't Take Your Love" the Index lists Billy May, but only as conductor.
     
  6. Bob F

    Bob F Senior Member

    Location:
    Massachusetts USA
    Billy conducted all of the songs, of course. It certainly is new and interesting information which adds Skip Martin to the album, and reduces even further May's contributions. However you slice it, all sources agree Heinie Beau did at least half the charts.
     
  7. Sean Keane

    Sean Keane Pre-Mono record collector In Memoriam Thread Starter

    I ordered this a few days ago. I read somewhere that it's remastered. The samples sound good, but from them I can't tell if the mono has been widened, which would mean Bob Norberg did it. Certain tracks do sound a bit clearer than I'm used to. Any thoughts?
     

    Attached Files:

  8. Bob F

    Bob F Senior Member

    Location:
    Massachusetts USA
    Bob Norberg's remasters. Read the booklet.
     
  9. apileocole

    apileocole Lush Life Gort

    Although it isn't that clear cut. None of it would be like it is without Billy May whether he personally penned out the whole deal or someone else did parts of the project after Billy May's style. Above all it was Billy May's approach (in style and name) that Frank and company were paying for... like Frank it wasn't replaceable.
     
  10. paulmock

    paulmock Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hollywood, CA
    Kinda like the 4/30/53 session where Nelson did the Billy May sounding charts for "South of the Border" and "I Love You" where Nelson said to the orchestra "Now we're gonna make sounds like Billy May!"
     
  11. Sean Keane

    Sean Keane Pre-Mono record collector In Memoriam Thread Starter

    Thanks. They don't seem as widened as his other stuff, but the NR is quite obvious. I can even hear the 'pumping' in a few of the samples. I've never heard River, Stay Away any clearer than from his remaster, so while we're stuck with his NRing, it would have been good if he treated all Sinatra's Capitol recordings like that one. The pumping isn't nearly as noticeable there than on his Mr. Success.
     
  12. MMM

    MMM Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Lodi, New Jersey
    Interesting - never heard of that before, thanks Jordan. Billy must have been pretty occupied, having only done these few arrangements himself, even for a Sinatra album. I guess he was more invested in SWING ALONG WITH ME, which seems to have been a favorite of Billy's.
     
  13. jtaylor

    jtaylor Forum Resident

    Location:
    RVA
    Yeah, sure, I think that's fair. But at the same time I think there's a tendency to appreciate the value of the ghostwritten work differently depending on who is actually doing the writing. For instance, many seem to laud the versatility and dexterity of Riddle being able to write like May or May being able to reproduce the Lunceford and Ellington sounds, indeed the entire swing era for Time-Life. Yet, and correct me if I'm way off here, when it isn't a "name" guy, when it's just little old Heine Beau (his reputation among the cognoscenti notwithstanding) I don't think we are as eager to value his contribution in the same way as we would and do with other arrangers.

    Would anyone be at all surprised to learn that May did not write every chart for SWING ALONG? I have no knowledge that he didn't, but he was a busy guy. Doesn't seem all that unlikely that Beau or someone else was involved there too.
     
  14. MMM

    MMM Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Lodi, New Jersey
    Sort of, as I've never read of a reference to a ghost arranger for any of the charts on that album. But considering the Skip Martin info you came up with, I wouldn't be as surprised as I would have previously.

    As far as valuing the talents and contributions of a non-"name" arranger, yeah, I guess I sometimes think of them differently, but that's somewhat due to them not having as much of a body of their own non-ghost/mimic work that I'm aware of that's up there with a Billy May or a Nelson Riddle. At the same time, I can admire how one of these people (like Beau) can write something in the style of another, and do it well.
     
  15. Ridin'High

    Ridin'High Forum Resident

    I think that the Friedwald book is reliable enough in this regard, since he is directly and extensively quoting from Billy May - and from one or two others.

    There's also Charles Granata's book account:

     
  16. Thanks for the sources, RH!
     
  17. Ridin'High

    Ridin'High Forum Resident

    You are welcome, Ian. And while I'm in the mood, I might as well quote the longer account by Friedwald, too:

     
  18. DJ WILBUR

    DJ WILBUR The Cappuccino Kid

    great post, thanks for the read...
     
  19. paulmock

    paulmock Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hollywood, CA
    This might have been the incident that provoked Ellington into leaving Reprise in 1965. "They weren't too close, because Duke always accused Frank of trying to take Billy Strayhorn from him," says Hibbler, "and he accused me of trying to help him."

    Interesting. However, when he learned he was battling cancer, the first person Duke ran to for help (with Dr's., hospitals, etc.) was Mr. S!!!
     
  20. wave

    wave Forum Resident

    Location:
    Allen Park, MI
    The book that keeps giving!
     
  21. aoxomoxoa

    aoxomoxoa Buy now or cry later

    Location:
    USA
    So, maybe Bob or Martin would know the answer to this, and I apologize if this has been asked before. Has the sound problem with the Sinatra catalogue been addressed with Nancy at the SFF? I do not frequent that site, but from what I have seen there is mostly fluff about how great Frank was. Sure, he was great, I totally agree, but what is Nancy's stance on how the catalogue has been handled?
     
  22. frankfan1

    frankfan1 Forum Resident

    Well, sadly, as time passes on, Nancy has little time for any type of critique. It's like walking in a minefield. One critical comment, and you'll find the word "banned" under your avatar.

    Recently, a member (who is also a valuable resource here) made comments about some goobers in the new European Reprise box...absolutely valid because of the $$. He was treated like an abused cat. And the member was only trying to make sure the family know there were some egregious errors in the book. Nancy's treatment, although she eventually reopened the thread, was so harsh, I think I've only visited once. I truly think Frank would be pissed at how she treats some of her fans, though she does have a tendency to be sweet. I gotta give her credit for interacting with fans.
     
  23. Greg1954

    Greg1954 New Member

    Location:
    .
    I too, fail to see how pointing out a packaging mistake or even something trivial is in any way not 'Keeping The Flame Alive.' :D

    Flaming the fans for wanting Frank Sinatra stuff to be presented in the best possible quality would seem to go a fair ways to that end, though.
     
  24. TeacFan

    TeacFan Forum Resident In Memoriam

    Location:
    Arcadia, Ca.
    :yikes::confused:
     
  25. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

molar-endocrine