The Grateful Thread

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by JRM, Apr 11, 2014.

  1. snigglefritz

    snigglefritz Forum Resident

    Location:
    Durham, NC
    They redeemed themselves the next night, though.
     
  2. Archtop

    Archtop Soft Dead Crimson Cow

    Location:
    Greater Boston, MA
    Not a big difference in sound. The biggest differences are in how the guitars were constructed. When introduced, the SG was issued under the Les Paul name without Les' knowledge. It had a double cutaway (the Les Paul has a single cutaway on the high E side) and the neck joint was three frets higher than on the Les Paul, thus allowing for greater ease of access to the upper register. It also weighed considerably less. Most SGs I've seen have two P-90 pickups whereas many Les Pauls (as we typically know them) have three. Thus, the pickup switching and blending options aren't the same.

    So yes, technically Jerry was playing a Les Paul on 9/19/70, but I believe it's the same SG/Les Paul that he used on Live/Dead. For simplicity, I just refer to SGs as SGs and Les Pauls as Les Pauls, despite the reality that the original SG was a Les Paul in name.
     
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  3. Phoenician

    Phoenician Resident Forum

    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ
    Now I'm having o-chem flashbacks...
     
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  4. scribbs

    scribbs Resident Mockery

    Location:
    Surf City USA
    When I seeded shows, db.etree.org was my first stop. The etree source ID and file checksums were the priority. And then seeding to bt.etree.org at a minimum.
     
  5. ianuaditis

    ianuaditis Matthew 21:17

    Location:
    Long River Place
    From what I can tell, it seems Garcia used single coil P90s on his Les Pauls (the black and the gold top from 67-68,) whereas the 2 SGs came with humbuckers. (the one he played in 1970 would have had PAF pickups, the one from 1969 the later patented version, though they are pretty similar. )

    The SG also has a thinner body with less mass and the neck is barely attached to the body (all of which may help give it a darker sound and not as much sustain as the Les Paul.)

    I haven't seen a picture of Garcia playing this SG with p90s, but I assume this one is verified to have been his:
    JERRY GARCIA OWNED AND PLAYED GUITAR , CIRCA 1967
    (note no bigsby nor any scars, this leads me to think this was a different one than what he's depicted with onstage in 1969. I wonder how many guitars he owned but never played live, I know of at least a telecaster and Steve Irwin's Eagle.)

    I honestly don't hear a massive difference between the Les Paul and SG. (like between 68 and 69.) It's easy to hear though, the difference in guitar sound between say 2-13-70 (DP 4) and 5-15-70, where the former is a strat and the latter the SG shaped Les Paul.

    In 69 he played a more recent model SG, whereas the 1970 version was a 61 'Les Paul.'

    The main differences were the one in 69 had a bigsby on it, plus the slightly different pickups as I mentioned above.

    According to a post on the Les Paul forum, Garcia played a 3 pickup Les Paul in Toronto in 67, but the standard LP also has 2.


    I don't agree with too many. #10 in particular.

    I think they did start out not caring if they made any profits, they always sunk a lot of it back into the equipment and the organization, and a big part of the reason they kept going when they probably should have had a break was the people who relied on the band for their livelihoods.

    Allowing fans to tape and trade shows was not fully an act of generosity, but it was certainly not 'a genius business move.' If you look at how it actually came about it was about 1/3 an act of generosity (give the fans what they're asking for) and 2/3 laziness and inertia (Do we really want to do what it takes to stop people from taking what they're already taking?)

    I understand a difference between what they started out as, what they were in between, and what they have become these days, but it sticks in my craw when people act like they're just like any other business when even in their current commercialized incarnation they still do stuff like pass source tapes to Charlie Miller (or whoever else) to put 'out there,' tolerate torrents etc.

    The way he has it is 'they were never in it for the money' which if you look at it literally is a false statement, given that they took money in exchange for performances, physical media, merch, etc. But that's not what that expression means; it usually expresses something like 'they weren't only in it for the money' which is hard to argue against if you look at their words and actions over the years.

    Anyway, I still think its cool that there are newspaper articles about Deadhead stereotypes in 2018, however much I disagree with them.
     
  6. Dahabenzapple

    Dahabenzapple Forum Resident

    Location:
    Livingston NJ
    I don’t care for most of them - especially the stupid idea that people need to high to love “space jams” or abstract music.

    Listeners in general are so afraid and seemingly almost even sometimes offended by music that is radically different from what they are accustomed to. I have a friend who is a Dead listener, a guitarist and the ONLY abstract music he likes of any sort is within Grateful Dead jams. Like many others if the music isn’t going to transition into something familiar, he can’t open himself up to listening to the improvisation on it's own merit.
     
  7. KCWhistle

    KCWhistle Forum Resident

    Location:
    Kansas City, MO
    I don't think a little fear is unreasonable (and it's probably at the root of any "offended" reaction). I've struggled for years to get into jazz in the way that I perceive jazz enthusiasts to be "into jazz," and maybe I never will. But I take it as an encouraging sign that I'm finally struggling less with Grateful Dead jams than I did for a very long time. (Taking in lots of '73 second sets has helped.) Maybe there's hope for me yet.

    Ultimately, it's a process, we're all on a continuum, and we can adjust our placement on said continuum with some desire and effort.

    EDIT: But yes, the idea that one has to be high to listen to the Dead's more out-there excursions is dumb. It says far more about the person who has that idea than it does about anyone else.
     
  8. track11

    track11 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Michigan
    That (db.etree.0rg) certainly seems like the most crucial step. Regarding the archive, there seem to be only a couple folks credited as uploading the majority of shows to the archive (Jonathan Aizen and Matthew Vernon, for example).
     
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  9. ianuaditis

    ianuaditis Matthew 21:17

    Location:
    Long River Place
    Yeah, ok that was my 2nd most disagreed with.

    In particular the 'you must be high if you like this' angle that @KCWhistle mentions.

    I bought Philosophy and the Grateful Dead and one of the essays is about how space has no musical value. Like objectively. Once I get around to reading it I'll try to sum it up and see what the philosophers on the board (outnumbered only by the lawyers, it seems,) think of it.
     
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  10. Dahabenzapple

    Dahabenzapple Forum Resident

    Location:
    Livingston NJ
    Really the best way to experience avant-garde jazz is to experience it live in a small room. If you ever get out towards NYC look me up and I’ll introduce you to some of the best of the best:)
     
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  11. Crispy Rob

    Crispy Rob Cat Juggler

    Location:
    Oakland, CA
    Yes they did. Probably the best show I saw in ‘94 (note that I did not see any of the Fall ‘94 east coast tour).
     
  12. mw1917

    mw1917 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Albany, NY
    You're probably familiar with this story, but in 1987, Phil invited Ornette Coleman to a Dead show at Madison Square Garden. Ornette brought Cecil Taylor with him, and they were amazed that the massive audience didn't bolt for the exits during "Space." "If this audience can get into what they're doing, maybe they can get into what we're doing."
     
  13. scribbs

    scribbs Resident Mockery

    Location:
    Surf City USA
    I think much of the process is automated now, but I could be wrong. I do know that a lot of thought and planning and time was put into the initial massive importing of sources. Gosh, it's been a good ten years since I discussed the process with Matt and most of that is gone from my memory now. I recall, in the very early days, a phone conversation with Matt about this huge endeavor, about how to split up responsibility, parse source info, etc. I knew at the outset that I would not have the time to dedicate to gettting in the trenches with him and the rest of these fine folks. I do recall that the initial vision was to always have "the best" source for a particular show available, not unlike Lesh's idea for a one-stop concert repository. It really is a beautiful thing we have here.
     
  14. bzfgt

    bzfgt The Grand High Exalted Mystic Ruler

    Definitely the best show I saw in '94 (I only saw that and the night before though!).
     
  15. bzfgt

    bzfgt The Grand High Exalted Mystic Ruler

    I just listened to Other One>Comes a Time from 7/21/72, which was one of those Download Series things. Man, that stuff is red hot! Really excellent versions, I can't remember being as excited about them in the past but who knows what I was thinking or feeling like then...
     
  16. Dahabenzapple

    Dahabenzapple Forum Resident

    Location:
    Livingston NJ
    They and you all could but one must listen fully to have a chance.

    “Sampling” and “trying out” bits & pieces of someone like Cecil Taylor doesn’t work. Fwiw IMO Cecil’s music is just about the most difficult of all post 1960 free jazz/avant-garde music.

    Even Joe Maneri and his microtonal improvising is an easier nut to crack than Cecil Taylor’s Unit music of the 70’s & 80’s - let alone his awesome European Large ensemble from the late 80’s. Great but 65 minute continuous sets of 16 musicians playing seemingly different improvised music full bore is not an easy entrance point:(
     
  17. jazz_case

    jazz_case Forum Resident

    Location:
    Colfax
    Looking at deadlists for the 94 Vegas shows and scrolling down I am reminded just how strange the following Shoreline run was. I don't think Bill Graham would've let them get away without an encore on a Friday and Saturday night, but who knows.
     
  18. scribbs

    scribbs Resident Mockery

    Location:
    Surf City USA
    Samba in the Rain was the highlight of my last show on 12/16/94.
     
  19. pbuzby

    pbuzby Senior Member

    Location:
    Chicago, IL, US
    The Compendium reviews claim there was no encore due to venue curfew, but if I recall right McNally's book claimed it was due to a fight between Weir and the drummers where Weir claimed they were rushing the tempo.
     
  20. mw1917

    mw1917 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Albany, NY
    Maybe not, but as both an audience member and musician in this music, I've been surprised many times over at how accepting audiences can be, regardless of the level of difficulty they're presented with.
     
  21. posnera

    posnera Forum Resident

    Based on current performances, I’d say Weir won that argument.
     
  22. Dahabenzapple

    Dahabenzapple Forum Resident

    Location:
    Livingston NJ
    Yes I agree within a Live condition when it’s difficult or uncomfortable to get up & leave. I can’t tell you how many times my wife “wanted” to leave during the first 10 or 15 minutes of a set (sometimes the whole set but not often). Her experience is that 2 things happen:

    1) her ears or her mind starts getting accustomed or “used to”
    the music which is fundamentally different that what she (or 99% of music listeners) is “used to”.

    And

    2) the band (who are made up of predominantly or all world class musicians who specialize in improvised music and have been playing music of that sort for many years or even decades in some cases) gels and plays all-world creatively inspired improvised music as only a relative small number of musicians are capable of playing.
     
  23. track11

    track11 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Michigan
    X 1,000. Absolutely without equal.
     
  24. budwhite

    budwhite Climb the mountains and get their good tidings.

    Location:
    Götaland, Sverige
    78-05-13
    Bertha-> Good Lovin', Terrapin Station-> Playin' In The Band-> Drums-> Truckin'-> Black Peter-> Sugar Magnolia, E: One More Saturday Night

    78-05-16
    Scarlet Begonias-> Fire On The Mountain, El Paso, Ship of Fools, Estimated Prophet-> He's Gone-> Drums-> Comes A Time-> Sugar Magnolia, E: Johnny B. Goode

    78-05-17
    Samson & Delilah, Friend Of The Devil, Dancin' In The Streets-> Drums-> Terrapin Station-> Not Fade Away-> Around & Around, E: Werewolves of London

    As someone stated earlier, '78 is great summer music.
     
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  25. pbuzby

    pbuzby Senior Member

    Location:
    Chicago, IL, US
    Apparently in the last year or so of the GD they used a click track live. I don't know if the fight had something to do with it.
     

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