The Great USB cable debate poll

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by mindblanking, Feb 22, 2015.

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  1. russk

    russk Forum Resident

    Location:
    Syracuse NY
    Yep and then someone realized the profit margins that could be had in cables and tweaks and poof. Nice gear in your footer.
     
  2. russk

    russk Forum Resident

    Location:
    Syracuse NY
    I think the industry as a whole did it to themselves so it would take a combined effort but if the big names started digging themselves out it would be a start.
     
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  3. russk

    russk Forum Resident

    Location:
    Syracuse NY
    It is definitive and the other arguments here apply to analog signals.
     
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  4. missan

    missan Forum Resident

    Location:
    Stockholm
    Maybe so, but we are always listening subjectively and we always will. But one question would be; are the reviewers not aware that they also are just listening subjectively.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2015
  5. 62caddy

    62caddy Forum Resident

    Location:
    PA
    I do not have a problem with the free market.

    I do wish however the audio press could maintain some degree of independence but unfortunately to do so would be at its own peril - which is one of the reasons I have not subscribed to a major audio trade publication in over 25 years.
     
  6. radiophonic

    radiophonic Forum Resident

    Location:
    Nottingham, UK
    I voted 'no' and put my money where my mouth is. A very good DAC/ADC and a free cable.
     
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  7. russk

    russk Forum Resident

    Location:
    Syracuse NY
    Me either and to each his own but I do find it funny that in one magazine you can read an article about how the industry is dying and they can't make it appeal to new people and next to that article is an ad for 1000 dollar cable or some such.
     
    bru87tr likes this.
  8. 62caddy

    62caddy Forum Resident

    Location:
    PA
    The difficult part to understand is that performance is invariably proportional to expenditure, of which electrical signals are woefully unaware.

    Has anybody ever spent a relatively exorbitant sum on any component or link who witnessed a performance decline?
     
  9. CARPEYOLO

    CARPEYOLO Forum Resident

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    Agreed. If you don't know what you're doing, shopping for audio gear is like shopping for a mattress or a used car. That is to say, opaque and confusing.

    The difference though is that most people need a car and need a mattress so you have to bite the bullet at some point. People don't need hi-fi.
     
    russk likes this.
  10. jimbutsu

    jimbutsu WATCH YÖUR STEPPE

    Funny thing about the "free market" is that the theoretical "free market" many people who abuse the "free market" espouse (I don't mean you 62caddy, I suspect we agree) is based largely around the assumption of an informed consumer - were said assumption actually to hold, a lot of the "free market" supporters would be out in the cold.

    Not that that has anything to do with high end digital cable discussion as realtes to certain inalienable laws of physics or anything.
     
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  11. Tullman

    Tullman Senior Member

    Location:
    Boston MA
    Did you ever think that someone who is going to spend an exorbitant sum on a stereo component, has done their homework and is given a home demo before handing over the cash??:rolleyes:
     
    mindblanking likes this.
  12. 62caddy

    62caddy Forum Resident

    Location:
    PA
    That depends on what one defines as "homework" - and the source relied upon (if applicable). :)
     
  13. Tullman

    Tullman Senior Member

    Location:
    Boston MA
    Yeah, people spending big money are stupid.:rolleyes: Unless someone is filthy rich, people work their way up to the expensive stuff. That is homework.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2015
  14. 62caddy

    62caddy Forum Resident

    Location:
    PA
    Nice dodge - and mini rant.

    Once again - define homework and spare us the "rich people" nonsense which has nothing to do with anything.
     
  15. 62caddy

    62caddy Forum Resident

    Location:
    PA
    I know people who have hired plumbers - who have done their "homework".
    I know people who have hired electricians - who have done their "homework".
    I know people who have hired contractors - who have done their "homework".
    I know people who have bought major appliances, cars, houses and investments - all of whom had also... done their "homework".

    In each & every category, there is a certain percentage who did not get what they had bargained for.

    And yet, virtually every time someone upgrades something in this hobby, they got what they bargained for - 99% of the time.

    Either the error rate is astonishing low in the hobby of hi fi, or something else is going on.
     
  16. Vocalpoint

    Vocalpoint Forum Resident

    This. It is not mathematically possible to get "different" digital 1s or 0s by swapping a cable. Sigh.

    VP
     
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  17. Tullman

    Tullman Senior Member

    Location:
    Boston MA
    I have learned if one has a piece of equipment long enough it will fail for one reason or the other. I can say my CAT preamp has lasted for over 20 years without failure other than tubes. My amplifiers have been in for repair a couple of times, but this was after 10 years of use.

    Every new piece of equipment I ever bought, I got what I bargained for. I was able to audition at home. Obviously, I had to return some pieces because I didn't like them, but that was part of the bargain.

    Now... if you want to talk about used equipment, there is where I didn't get what I bargained for on some purchases. I can name several pieces that failed and they weren't cheap either.

    I do understand what you are saying. People don't want to admit they got a bad bargain.
     
  18. Isaac McHelicopter

    Isaac McHelicopter Possession is a clue but not the game.

    Location:
    Cumbria, UK
    Let me say, from the start, that I have no direct experience of high-priced USB cables, so it could be argued that I have nothing to contribute to the debate. However, some may find the following of interest.

    A friend bought a Chord Hugo DAC after we auditioned it against several other high spec models. The differences between them were subtle, but we agreed that the Hugo was the best of the bunch. It came bundled with its own USB cable, but he wondered if an expensive cable might make it sound even better. My background as a computer engineer puts me firmly in the "it's all zeros and ones" camp, so I thought than rather than risk spending £200+ (of his money, admittedly!), we'd run a test by going the other way. From my box of computer bits, I pulled out an assortment of cheap and cruddy USB cables, USB extensions and pound store passive USB hubs. The idea was to make the worst possible USB link. One by one, I daisy chained them together, connecting the Hugo to a laptop every time I added another link to the chain, to see if the Hugo still worked. At about eight metres, we lost the signal, so I took one short USB extension out and it came back. Total length? Just over seven metres, made up of six separate cheap components.

    Next we compared the sound of the bundled Hugo cable (which I assume Chord consider to be of sufficient quality to do justice to their product) with the seven metre daisy chain, using blind testing, through Fostex TH900 headphones. Neither of us could detect any difference, which suggests that the quality of the cable does not affect the resulting fidelity.

    From the debate, it's apparent that there are many people who are convinced that an expensive cable gives better sound, which is fine if it brings them great enjoyment of their music. After all, enjoyment of the music is what it's all about, isn't it?

    Best wishes to all, whatever your views on this surprisingly emotive subject. :)

    Phil
    Cumbria, UK
     
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  19. 62caddy

    62caddy Forum Resident

    Location:
    PA
    The main point I was trying to illustrate is that the expectation of improvement is extremely powerful and practically impossible to eliminate from the listening experience. Oftentimes these expectations are reinforced by reading the comments of others which in most cases are undoubtedly sincerely given.

    To wit: I had purchased a very expensive and highly regarded vintage tube amplifier that had been completely gone through and serviced by the best specialists most familiar with this unit. This was, by far, the single largest purchase of an audio component I had ever made. After eagerly connecting the amplifier, I myself was convinced that this was the best sounding amplifier I had ever owned, ecstatic as a kid on Christmas Day.

    I also still had the SS amplifier that the tube unit replaced so I decided that it would be a good idea keep the SS amplifier in the system in order to spare tube life by using the SS amplifier for less critical listening. I then decided to purchase an amplifier switcher thereby allowing the switch between the two amplifiers, instantly, with the simple push of a button.

    Needless to say, such an arrangement provides the ultimate opportunity for making instantaneous A/B comparisons between the two amplifiers, in real time which is the only true method of making comparisons with any degree of reliability because of the serious limitations inherent in human auditory memory.

    Well, it immediately became apparent that there was zero appreciable difference between the two amplifiers. In short, it was shattering as it was humbling to say the least. Determined to hear a difference, it did not stop there. I got out every type of music I had, from rock to classical, blue jazz, folk, disco, jazz, vocals, choral, opera - even test tones! The result was the same - nothing. Then I switched speakers from the 3 way Boston Acoustics speakers I was using to a pair of vintage Altec horns. Still nothing. Tried again replaying all the different types of music -using LP, CD and FM. Still nothing. Invited friends to see if they could pick out one amplifier over the other. Nope, nope and nope.

    So there is the firsthand experience of someone who learned greatly from his experience, for whatever it may be worth.

    Hopefully it will help to illustrate why whenever someone claims that they witness some significant sonic improvement by swapping cables and most any other assorted "tweaks", I shake my head in skepticism. Especially when it takes minutes between the time to listen before and after the "improvement" has been implemented - something that requires a millisecond in order to make a worthwhile comparison.

    There are no great leaps in this hobby the further up the ladder you go and micro-improvements cannot be determined in the way that most claim - not in the way that they are doing it.

    62caddy
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2015
    Wngnt90 likes this.
  20. whaiyun

    whaiyun Forum Resident

    Location:
    Windsor/Detroit
    How loud were you auditioning the amps? There is/should be a significant difference between SS and tube amps, especially as the volume gets louder. They compress very differently under heavier load.

    EDIT: this is based on my experience with guitar amps. I haven't ventured into tube audio amps. yet. There's a reason why guitar players use tubes almost all the time. (digital modeling amps aside)
     
  21. 62caddy

    62caddy Forum Resident

    Location:
    PA
    I may as well disclose the amplifiers is question - McIntosh MC 240 and McIntosh MC 2505 @ 40 wpc and 50 wpc respectively.

    Neither were driven beyond their safe operational limits.

    Speakers used were Boston Acoustics T1000 and Heathkit AS 21 (basically Altec Malibu).

    Observing the MC 2505 output meters, maximum output was ~ 30 wpc into the Bostons; 3 wpc into the Altecs.

    Thanks.
     
  22. 62caddy

    62caddy Forum Resident

    Location:
    PA
    EDIT - My understanding behind the use of tube amplifiers with amplified guitars is due to the characteristic of tube amplifiers when clipping - which in conjunction with guitars in certain music produces desirable effects.

    These effects cannot be produced by solid state equipment which clip more harshly.
     
  23. jfeldt

    jfeldt Forum Resident

    Location:
    SF, CA, USA
    I have. I've bought two expensive items that were raved about online, and ended up returning them since I didn't like how they sounded compared to what I already have.
     
  24. mindblanking

    mindblanking The Bourbon King Thread Starter

    Location:
    Baltimore, MD
    The only thing you didn't try was a DAC and a good USB cable! Stop! I'm kidding.
     
    62caddy likes this.
  25. Wngnt90

    Wngnt90 Forum Resident

    Dumb question....what percentage of the general population can be hypnotized vs those that can't. Might be interesting to see if there might be any correlation to what some claim they can hear and those that claim they can't.
     
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