The Kinks - Album by Album (song by song)

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by mark winstanley, Apr 4, 2021.

  1. donstemple

    donstemple Member of the Club

    Location:
    Maplewood, NJ
    Rosemary Rose
    This is another new song for me... Been listening to it on loop for the past hour or so. So, at 2 minutes long, I've probably heard it at least 30 times :laugh:

    The harpsichord and harp are nice. The rim hit percussion is nice too, and fits just right with the acoustic guitar. It's as if the harpsichord "riff" is repeating "Rosemary Rose" instrumentally.. It's a nice release after the verses...

    As for the lyrics, it really is a sad song to me... I hear the opening lines as:

    "Rosemary Rose, Nature sure gave you such a beautiful nose, 'Though you're not beautiful as someone that knows that Rosemary Rose Has eyes of blue"

    It still doesn't quite make sense to me...

    To me, there is something so sad about the line: "And someone is treasuring a picture of you Taken on a holiday when you were just three, My sweet Rosemary." There is a whole backstory about that "someone". Who is it, what happened between them and Rosemary, that leaves them clutching an old photograph of Rosemary as a child.

    This line is also just devastatingly sad to me: "Carefully sewing on your buttons and bows, Hoping that someone will be wanting to know, Of Rosemary Rose." What caused Rosemary to be alone, and taking all the care necessary to get dressed up, hoping that someone would want to know her?

    It's a sad song, delivered in a somber tone. I don't see it fitting on VGPS, but perhaps it would have worked on "Something Else". Seems in a similar vein to "Two Sisters" to me.
     
  2. LX200GPS

    LX200GPS Forum Resident

    Location:
    Somewhere Else
    But a 'berk' is prounced the correct way and not bark. I don't suppose that word is used in the US?
     
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  3. joejo

    joejo Well-Known Member

    Location:
    toronto
    what is a berk?
     
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  4. Fortuleo

    Fortuleo Used to be a Forum Resident

    At least we'll agree that it works as a sister song to Rosie Won't You Please Come Home !
    It's very true. I never thought of it but I could easily picture Jim M. crooning this.
    What fascinates me is that this You Really Got Me guitar riff mimics the "Rose-ma-ry-Rose" melodic phrasing, which draws a surprising parallel between Ray's opening vocal line of this delightful mid-tempo ballad and Dave's unleashed guitar riffing on their historical first hit. How unlikely is that ?
     
  5. ajsmith

    ajsmith Senior Member

    Location:
    Glasgow
  6. Zeki

    Zeki Forum Resident

    Gotta say this line had me howling. Did he just say that? :D

    Yep, I’m hearing for the first time right now and thought “Doors”. Not all the way through, but in spots.

    Overall, I think the lyrics reflect on that specific era. But I’ll think about what some of the rest of you have said and, possibly, may change my mind.
     
  7. donstemple

    donstemple Member of the Club

    Location:
    Maplewood, NJ
    That's how I heard it initially! The riff is playing "rose ma-ry rose", instead of repeating it vocally.
     
  8. FJFP

    FJFP Host for the 'Mixology' Mix Differences Podcast

    And since it came from the Something Else sessions, this makes perfect sense!
     
  9. LX200GPS

    LX200GPS Forum Resident

    Location:
    Somewhere Else
    Rosemary Rose

    I haven't a clue what Rosemary Rose is all about but have always enjoyed listening to it. As already pointed out, this is another gem from the GLKA and that's where I first heard it. I presume that album will be up for discussion at some point but I remember wondering at the time I heard it just how many great Kinks songs there were lurking in the Pye vaults.

    Instead of compiling my own personal Village Green playlist I am now toying with the idea of leaving the Village Green as it is and putting the other tracks on my personal GLKA. This will allow me to include those songs which do not completely fit with the Village Green theme but were recorded around the same time. Berkeley Mews for example. Still not sure what I'm going to do to be honest.
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2021
  10. mark winstanley

    mark winstanley Certified dinosaur, who likes physical product Thread Starter

    Same here
     
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  11. Steve E.

    Steve E. Doc Wurly and Chief Lathe Troll

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY, USA
    I agree with much of what's been said. Gorgeous song, gorgeous track. Lyrics feel a little too sketchy, mysterious, not-revealing enough, but that's just my critical mind saying it's short of a masterpiece. It feels like it's supposed to be part of a bigger story that never got written, and it wants that context. But the fact is, I enjoy it thoroughly as is.

    Lyric corrections:

    Rosemary Rose,
    Nature sure gave you such a beautiful nose.
    'Though you're not beautiful, there's someone that knows,
    That Rosemary Rose,
    Has eyes of blue...

    Chewing on your Liquorice/licorice gum, and cigarettes.

    This ^ line is an interesting detail. Is she chewing on candy cigarettes, or is she chewing licorice gum to hide the cigarettes she's naughtily smoking?

    I always heard a later line as "Katherine is sewing on your buttons and bows." "Carefully" makes more sense, but I like my version.

    The stereo mix only showed up VERY recently (on the Anthology and the latest VGPS deluxe edition) and may be a contemporary remix. It has an additional vocal section in the break, which is longer, and an additional "Rosemary Rose" at the end. I have to assume that the edited mono version shows Ray's eventual choices on the song.

    I've wondered a bit if some of the strumming later in the song is a Mellotron (as found on "The Continuing Story of Bungalow Bill") but I doubt it. I agree that sonically, this sounds a heck of a lot like a "Face to Face" outtake, though it doesn't sound like a 3-track recording.

    *** *** ***

    I'm presuming that Ray was following his muse, and not quite sure of how his next album was going to play out. Clearly he liked the idea of "Village Green" being the center of the next album, but what would this be surrounded by? More character portraits like "Something Else"? It's easy to imagine, given that we have the finished VGPS, that it sprang fully formed from his brain, but it rarely works like that, does it?

    So we end up, early on, with this one, in June 1967 (possibly held back, or possibly deemed not good/finished enough for "Something Else"), plus:

    "Little Women" (backing track, June 1967)
    "Lavender Hill", (August 1967)
    "Suzannah's Still Alive" (August 1967 --probably not intended for this album)
    "Autumn Almanac," (September 1967)
    "Mr. Songbird," (December 1967)
    and possibly "Polly" (Garter, of Dylan Thomas' "Under Milk Wood" -- the latter song in March, but either 1967 or 1968).

    In March 1968, we get "Wonderboy," "Did You See His Name?" (re-recording of "11th hour" TV song), and Dave's "Lincoln County." (its B-side is Jan 1968).

    The songs that actually make the album start appearing in April 1968, along with "Berkeley Mews."

    *** *** ***

    As "Rosemary Rose," "Pictures in the Sand," and "Lavender Hill," weren't considered for Reprise's 1968 "Four More Respected Gentlemen" album, or even sent over at that time, when did Reprise end up with a copy of this tape, as found on GLKA?

    Found on this Wikipedia page, this might explain it. I wish it went into more detail about this other unreleased album. Anyone have "Fusion," Feb 1971, or "Who Put the Bomp" #7?

    Four More Respected Gentlemen - Wikipedia

    Another proposed LP in the Reprise master tape vault has been mistaken for Four More Respected Gentlemen in two separate articles by Greg Shaw. The first article was in the Boston-based rock tabloid "Fusion" (19 February 1971) and later, in more detail, in Shaw's own fanzine "Who Put The Bomp 7" (Summer 1971), distributed by Warner Brothers Records. To add to the confusion, however, Shaw erroneously reversed the information on the two unreleased LPs; what he referred to as an unfinished untitled LP was actually the real Four More Respected Gentlemen, and vice versa. These tapes were apparently received by Reprise at the same time as the initial but incomplete submission of the Arthur LP (3 July 1969), but their purpose is unclear, since they were not entered as official masters by Reprise until 1972, after the Kinks reluctantly agreed to Reprise's demand for another LP worth of material to replace the rejected Percy soundtrack LP. Certainly these titles were never intended as the 1968 Four More Respected Gentlemen LP, as many of these songs weren't even recorded until early 1969, after The Kinks Are The Village Green Preservation Society was finally released.

     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2021
  12. Steve E.

    Steve E. Doc Wurly and Chief Lathe Troll

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY, USA
    PS.... am I remembering correctly that Ray also claimed at this time that he was working on a simultaneous concept album about things like table manners? I think I took that at face value if I read it, when it may have been a joke.
     
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  13. Brian Kelly

    Brian Kelly 1964-73 rock's best decade

    Rosemary Rose
    One of several Kinks songs about a "wayward lass", though others in this vein like "Polly" and "Big Black Smoke" are better.
    Still, this is decent song.
    (3/5)
     
  14. idleracer

    idleracer Forum Resident

    Location:
    California
    :eek: Believe it or not, this is the first time I've ever heard the stereo mix of this, with those extra four measures at 1:08 and that final "Rosemary Rose" at 1:49

    :kilroy: This absolutely belongs on "Something Else," and not just as a special bonus track. Side 2 only has six tracks, and this is begging to be shoehorned right in between "Love Me Til The Sun Shines" and "Lazy Old Sun." The whole special multiple CD edition of VGPS in many ways sounds like it's merely a twofer of that album and "The Great Lost Kinks Album," even though there are numerous cuts on the latter that obviously would be out of place on the former. Due to the rich abundance of minor chords, this sounds like it's taking place at night and indoors in a darkened room, which would completely disrupt the mood of VGPS. I have always assumed that the cigarettes in this tune must be referring to candy bubblegum cigarettes that were made in the 1960s, but ceased production in the 1970s. One doesn't "chew" on real cigarettes.

    The chord progression of the bridge is absolutely sublime, particularly the way the Cm chord on the word "Gum" switches to a C chord for the "rettes" in "Cigarettes."
    :yikes: Holy crap, how did I ever live to be 63 years old without making that obvious connection? This was recorded practically on the same day:

     
  15. FJFP

    FJFP Host for the 'Mixology' Mix Differences Podcast

    As far as I can tell, the remix is by Sandoval, first appearing on the Anthology. I always appreciated how vintage it sounded rather than being a little boosted.

    As for inclusion on Something Else, I’m definitely going to try that out. I’ve always wondered where I’d insert Village Green too...
     
  16. Michael Streett

    Michael Streett Senior Member

    Location:
    Florence, SC
    The stereo mixes are actually slightly different between the first release on The Anthology and the later VGPS Super Deluxe.
    The Super Deluxe seems to be a shade drier but then listen to the instrumental harpsichord punches in the middle of the song. There is reverb there that veers to the center channel on the Anthology mix, but it stays to the right on the Super Deluxe mix.
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2021
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  17. joejo

    joejo Well-Known Member

    Location:
    toronto
    I do not think these were mixed to stereo. FMRG is a stereo album. I think that is what happened.
     
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  18. zipp

    zipp Forum Resident

    ROSEMARY ROSE

    The instrumentation on this is great. And I wouldn't add a thing, even if to some it sounds unfinished.

    The lyrics are fascinating too. It's not often you hear the line "You're not beautiful" in a song that is apparently praising a girl.

    And this girl seems so fragile. Cigarettes have replaced liqorice and sewing has replaced childish pursuits, but inside she's the same insecure person seeking attention.

    I'd gladly have put this song on the village green album, but we've already had Monica with the knows/nose rhyme. Here we have nose/knows/Rose which is poetic overkill toboot.

    And of course we've already had Ray when he was just three. How many more pictures of three-year-olds can we treasure at one time?

    I also wonder if this girl won't be prone to the evils of the big city rather than satisfiied with the simple village life.

    Much like this other misguided miss:

    "Let's move down to some big town

    Where they love a gal by the cut of her clothes

    And I'll stand out in buttons and bows."

     
  19. palisantrancho

    palisantrancho Forum Resident

    Rosemary Rose

    This takes me back to that joyful day when I bought The Great Lost Kinks Album. Imagine the excitement of hearing these songs for the first time! Another album of Village Green era tunes to dive into was amazing. It was like finding buried treasure. This is short and sweet and I imagine Ray didn't think it was fully formed enough to make it on an album. I do agree with others that it would work nicely as a short little song squeezed onto Something Else. Was Ray on fire or what? What other band of the 60s had so many great unused songs? I love the sound of this record.
     
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  20. croquetlawns

    croquetlawns Forum Resident

    Location:
    Scotland
    That's a good and amazing point - with three good to brilliant songwriters (sorry Ringo!) The Beatles seem to have released pretty much everything they recorded, whereas Ray on his own had lots of unreleased stuff. Through in the unreleased at the time Dave tracks, and there's a lot to discover with The Kinks. This is no slight on The Beatles, who I also like, but more a comparison for the sake of showing how prolific, and good, Ray was at the time.
     
  21. Wondergirl

    Wondergirl Forum Resident

    Location:
    Massachusetts, USA
    Rosemary Rose
    I think Mark got it right...this is a sketch of a person ....or a song. the part where Ray just sings "ba-da-bum" part feels like a filler for other lyrics that didn't quite come to him or are incomplete.

    however, I do enjoy this song as it is. I don't understand it lyrically but I'm diggin' the music and the harpsichord.
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2021
  22. Wondergirl

    Wondergirl Forum Resident

    Location:
    Massachusetts, USA
    Oh my...I was in a CYO(Christian Youth Organization) musical back in high school (me, being an atheist, no less) (around 1981) and I remember singing this song. Talk about a time warp. :eek::eek:
     
  23. markelis

    markelis Forum Resident

    Location:
    Miami Beach FL
    Berkeley Mews/Rosemary Rose: Since most of these songs are actually new to me, the way I have been approaching this is to listen to the music on my own first, and give it a good solid listen through at least half a dozen times before I even take a look at what any of my fellow posters have written about it so as not have a pre-prejudiced view. In this case it has paid dividends as follows:

    Before I read yoooz all comments, I liked Berkeley Mews but didn’t love it. Saloon style boogie-woogie piano is not typically my favorite. That said, I liked it enough that it would have go on a playlist, although towards the tail end. Once I saw that you all largely loved it, I decided to revisit it with an open mind a few more times and I ended up digging it much more.

    Conversely, right out of the gate (and again before I read you thoughts), I really liked Rosemary Rose. It has got an absolutely beautiful melody and, as Fortuleo identified above, some really great lines (I really like the line that goes “yet you’re such a little baby, chewing on you are licorice gum, and cigarettes.”). I loved this one instantly. Perhaps had I read everyone’s thoughts first though, I might not have embraced it so readily, since it seems many on here don’t think this one’s a bit light weight. I am glad I had no preconceived notions about the general perception of RR to sway my own initial assessment.

    I think both of these would have fit well on a double album version of TKATVGPS. My take on the lyrics to Rosemary Rose is that she is a young girl from the village dolling herself up to try to make it in the big city, much like Polly, and thus a reasonable fit for the TKATVGPS theme (albeit a bit redundant, but it’s such a pretty song I would accept the redundancy). Berkeley Mews is a tough fit to argue lyrically, but musically it has that old times feel like much of TKATVGPS. Additionally, TKATVGPS has such a diverse feel stylistically from song to song, one could argue BM fits solely by virtue of how different it is stylistically than any other song is on the album (ok, weak argument, I am just thinking that a double album could accommodate it because it’s just a cool song from the same era).
     
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  24. Pawnmower

    Pawnmower Senior Member

    Location:
    Dearborn, MI
    "Rosemary Rose" - I continue to be impressed with what Ray is just leaving in the vaults in 1968. This song isn't even 2 minutes and has so much going on. Whenever I think of this track, I go straight to those drums at 0:55. And the additional instrumentation in the 10 seconds before that to flesh out the verse is such a nice set up.. then boom, rockin' drum break. It may deserve it's fate, like "Mr. Songbird," but it's not without it's unique qualities. I appreciate the experimentation. Love the "ba ba's" at 1:10. I'm a sucker for those things. It's also a good way to show how catchy the melody is, when even the singer can't help but hum along.
     
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  25. Vagabone

    Vagabone Forum Resident

    Location:
    UK
    The Beach Boys come to mind, particularly Smile onwards . And I think The Who had a lot too.
     

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