The Kinks - Album by Album (song by song)

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by mark winstanley, Apr 4, 2021.

  1. Steve62

    Steve62 Vinyl hunter

    Location:
    Murrumbateman
    Nothing to Say
    :laughup:
    I feel a bit of dill because I had never thought of these lyrics in context before Mark explained it so well here. I just heard ‘nothing to say’ and wondered why such a gifted songwriter as Ray Davies would literally have nothing to say at the end of such a great album. So I’m going to have to give this song an upwards re-evaluation.
     
  2. ajsmith

    ajsmith Senior Member

    Location:
    Glasgow
    Re: The Kinks and Zappa, as @DISKOJOE mentions, Dave cops to being a Zappa fan in his authobio, specifically singling out WOIIFTM and ‘Dancin’ Fool’. The one time I saw Dave live in 2001, ‘Who Needs The Peace Corp?’ was part of his pre show music. Ray’s 1997 collection of short stories ‘Waterloo Sunset’ opens with a recollection of late 60s LA that invokes Zappas name and is almost certainly based on his time there producing ‘Turtle Soup’.

    I always wonder what Frank would have made of The Kinks, given that they were more cynical about the 60s and could lean reactionary like his own work, but AFAIK there’s nothing on record. I always thought the 1972 Kinks track ‘Maximum Consumption’ sounded Zappa esque, reminiscent of his more pop-comedic 70s work.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2021
  3. Fortuleo

    Fortuleo Used to be a Forum Resident

    Ah, I love it, I love this thread that forces us to listen, once again – and with better ears – to things we thought we knew inside and out. This is obviously one of the lesser tracks on Arthur, right? Remember our collective opening posts from two weeks ago: “too bad the album starts to drag on a little bit in the latter half of Side 2” etc. Young and Innocent Days and Nothing to Say were the obvious culprits! But just like yesterday's reappraisal, as we listen again to Nothing to Say, it becomes something else (more?) than just a song : we hear characters, we hear emotions, we have a better understanding of what’s at play, we understand where the characters are coming from and where the song leads to. And it’s a wonderful feeling. At least if my sentimental interpretation of the lyrics (which is very different from yours, Mark) is correct.

    Based on the BBC radio play of two years back, Ray’s supposedly impersonating Arthur’s other son Terry, who calls his pa’ back home on the phone – or does he write him a letter? Yep, he sounds rather cruel. Years have passed and in his own mind, he left his father behind, stuck in the “old world” and his depressing "shangri-la". The decline of the British empire? It’s the aging of the father, the decline of his beliefs, his lack of ambition, his contentment of being stuck in a bygone era. But in all this litany, I hear a son's need for self-affirmation, which obviously also means doubts, sadness and regret. A bit of guilt, even… He has “nothing to say” to his father, but he says a lot. Underneath the bragging and distance, he says he misses him, he says he thinks of him, he says he cares and worries and loves, and wishes they wouldn’t be that far apart. That’s how I want to hear it, anyway, especially in the latter part of the song, when he suddenly attacks his father for being the one that has “nothing to say” and pretends "that everything is fine”, thus engineering the distance. Ray’s singing is some of the best on the whole record, I think. The second verse (higher pitched and double tracked) is fantastic, it’s the voice of the upbeat tunes on Everybody’s in Show-biz.

    Now, about the middle-eight (“those happy we spent together”). This is my second favorite bit on the whole LP after the surf section in Australia. I’m not sure whether it’s still Terry singing, expressing his true hidden affectionate feelings, or if it’s sung in the voice of old Arthur. I guess it doesn’t change much, either way. It’s either his father or Terry’s own conscience making himself/itself heard from afar in a minor key, as a haunting voice telling the truth of the family sentiment, right in the middle of a rant that shouldn’t be taken at face value. Musically and emotionally, this little 20 seconds break is nothing short of sublime. Really, I’m stunned. I never knew this song was so strong.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2021
  4. All Down The Line

    All Down The Line The Under Asst East Coast White Label Promo Man

    Location:
    Australia
    Young And Innocent Days

    I really like the classical sounding picking just after the introduction and the harpsichord then adding to the baroque feel.

    The title line is a great melody sung beautifully and plaintively and the sentiment is wonderful as we can then achingly reminisce about our youth when we had no knowledge or experience of war.

    That said I am not sure many fine parts maketh a great whole and so this remains a good but second tier number i don't really think of outside of it's mother album.
     
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  5. All Down The Line

    All Down The Line The Under Asst East Coast White Label Promo Man

    Location:
    Australia
    Nothing To Say

    Fine melody, progression, linking riffs, lead guitar and vocal that always acts as a pick me up and entertains me no matter my mood.

    I too never considered the lyrics too deeply perhaps as for me the jolly music sang the song which to me is the most important part of the composition.

    That said the son is perhaps somewhat frustrated with himself to appear so exasperated with his ageing father when he perhaps sees his own middle age not so far off and what has he achieved for himself that contents him?

    Ah yes he left his parents and relatives for Australia and it's been good, well hasn't it, hasn't it?
     
  6. Zeki

    Zeki Forum Resident

    Nothing To Say: Hmm, I’m going to have to take more time to think about the lyrics.

    The set up is:

    Remember walking with you by my side
    You were my Papa and I was your pride
    Now I've got children and I'm going grey
    No time for talking I got nothin' to say

    Those Sunday dinners that we had at home
    Now I've got a house and I've got friends of my own
    We can't do tomorrow what we did yesterday
    It's best that we're going our separate ways, OK
    —-
    So (whoever it is, the son talking to the father) is a father now himself, with a house and friends...and, yeah, I see exactly what Mark is describing in his opening post.

    Played against the jaunty music, complete with horns, it didn’t seem such a downer (or is it still rebellion?). It sure isn’t one of those pensive songs like Harry Chapin’s Cat’s In the Cradle where the music helps set the tone. Which means what? That the son who is speaking is even more callous?
     
  7. Steve62

    Steve62 Vinyl hunter

    Location:
    Murrumbateman
    I am so impressed with this assessment by @Fortuleo. It does make even more sense if this is the context.
    And what you say here hits home. I think it’s a telephone conversation back when international phone calls were very expensive. Terry and his parents would have had regular (on special occasions like birthdays, anniversaries, Christmas or New Year) phone calls - as of course would Ray's family with Arthur and Rose in Adelaide. Casting my mind back to my youth I remember some of my mother’s calls to her family in England- regular topics were the weather and health problems - nothing remarkable at all. Its more about hearing the voices at the other end of the line than the substance of the conversations.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2021
  8. mark winstanley

    mark winstanley Certified dinosaur, who likes physical product Thread Starter

    I must say the first verse made me think we were heading in a Cat's in the Cradle direction.... it didn't really go there though lol
     
  9. mark winstanley

    mark winstanley Certified dinosaur, who likes physical product Thread Starter

    Yea, I Skype my parents every Thursday, and I just let mum tell me all the stuff that's going on with people.
    In reality I have little to say lol what have I got going on.... I work, I eat, I sleep, not very exciting really.
     
  10. Zeki

    Zeki Forum Resident

    Having little to say, though, is different than “it’s best we go our separate ways.” Isn’t it?

    I could accept the idea of it not being the substance if it weren’t for that one sentence declaration.
     
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  11. Steve E.

    Steve E. Doc Wurly and Chief Lathe Troll

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY, USA
    This is one of the first Kinks songs I heard. Which is weird. It was the Arthur track that Warner-Reprise picked to promote the album on one of their Loss Leaders. And the mono mix, which I think the liner notes apologized for. The album had not yet been released. My dad bought all these loss leaders, so I heard this song as a wee tyke. (They did included "Shangri-La" on a later, very obscure Loss Leader.)

    I think it's a very confusing song given the lack of context -- the single most difficult song to interpolate into a story. We don't really know if this is all Derek, or whether that reedy, off-key voice in the bridge is Arthur (I have always assumed the latter).

    I agree that the music is fun. I think Mark nails the oddness of this character suddenly expressing all this hostility at Arthur.

    Nothing up to this point has given us any reason to think Arthur would have deserved this sort of kiss off. And I agree, it would be an especially strange thing to do on the day you are leaving on a boat. Given that no child named Terry is listed in the synopsis on the cover, my hunch is that an older, wiser Ray realized that this song hurt the dramatic arc, and added another character for the radio play. But I dunno.

    I love the little horn and guitar crescendo breaks between the verses. There's something a little Muppet-ty about the "nothing to say" vocal choruses. Something in the track makes me think of Fats Domino or New Orleans pop. (and, in fact, it was followed on the Loss Leader collection by Fats Domino's wonderful version of the Beatles' "Everybody's Got Something to Hide Except Me And My Monkey.")

    It's a fun song. I do think it's a bit of a misstep to make this the 11th hour number.

     
  12. Steve62

    Steve62 Vinyl hunter

    Location:
    Murrumbateman
    Fair point. Then again, they have made a decision to be 16,000 km apart, which is as separate as it gets.
     
  13. mark winstanley

    mark winstanley Certified dinosaur, who likes physical product Thread Starter

    Terry confused me lol... does he still meet Julie? :)
     
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  14. ARL

    ARL Forum Resident

    Location:
    England
    "Nothing To Say"

    On the face of it, this is the typical penultimate track for me - the most disposable/forgettable of the album, or the one most likely to pass me by - which is probably why I've never looked too closely at the lyrics. It's easier to appreciate in isolation - the horn parts which accentuate the end of the first verse and then lead into the excellent middle eight is the highlight of the track - it's a little more mundane after that. I suppose it's just a generation gap argument between a father and son, and we don't really know who is winning the argument. Arthur's life will go on regardless, though, as personified by the great guitar riff that we will be discussing tomorrow!
     
  15. DISKOJOE

    DISKOJOE Boredom That You Can Afford!

    Location:
    Salem, MA
    From what I've read from the other Avids, it seems to me that "Nothing to Say" is one of those songs on Arthur that would have benefited if the TV movie went forward so that we could have seen what was really intended in the song. On the face of it, it really seems like one of those "Generation Gap" songs that fitted into that late 1960s ethos of "Don't Trust Anyone Under 30" that was fashionable then. I also see a bit of "Cat's Cradle" although I don't think Arthur seemed to be that kind of father. Maybe this was the song that Ray vented his spleen on the real Arthur for taking his beloved sister & nephew* away to Australia.

    *I've read in several Kinks books that Ray wanted Terry to work w/the band as tour manager/roadie
     
  16. seanw

    seanw Forum Resident

    Location:
    Toronto
    I think all of Arthur stands up really well on its own merits, without the need for the TV tie-in, which speaks to the quality of Ray's writing and the band's playing throughout.

    Nothing to Say is another great track. Sounds like the band is having fun playing it.
     
  17. Brian Kelly

    Brian Kelly 1964-73 rock's best decade

    Nothing To Say
    I used to get this song and Yes Sir No Sir kind of confused in my mind. I had to listen to this again to remember the difference. I like the piano opening. The feel of the song fits the lyrics.
    Does anyone else think the horn sounds a bit like the riff from the future Who song "5:15"?
     
  18. Zeki

    Zeki Forum Resident

    ‘Time Has Come Today’. I finally figured out what song a snippet of Nothing To Say was reminding me of. Why? I’m not sure! :D I think maybe because of Ray’s lower register vocals (as nothing else makes any sense). Anyway, personal mystery solved as it was driving me nuts.
     
  19. skisdlimit

    skisdlimit Forum Resident

    Location:
    Bellevue, WA
    Well, I have almost "Nothing to Say" about this song which hasn't been better said above (or probably below), except that the line "You were my Papa and I was your pride" sounds a bit like Steve Miller to me. Another good song on this fine album. :thumbsup:
     
  20. donstemple

    donstemple Member of the Club

    Location:
    Maplewood, NJ
    Nothing To Say

    Is it just me, or is Ray using the same voice as in Victoria during the opening line of this song? Could that first line be sung by Arthur, and the rest of the lines of that opening verse being the son? Maybe I am hearing too much into it, but the voice reminds me of his Victoria voice.

    It's not in the top tier of songs on the album, but I still love this song. It's so catchy. It was one of the first songs on the album that I remembered and got stuck in my head after hearing it only once or twice. So upbeat in style, which is certainly a contrast to the lyrics. This is one of the most vitriolic lyrics I've heard in such a bouncy song:

    "But all the words that you spit from your face
    Add up to nothin', you got nothin' to say"

    There is a disgust there behind those words. A resentment.

    Musically, I love those horn/guitar segue riffs. I absolutely love that bridge. It might be one of Ray's best bridges in a song, when compared to the context/feel of the rest of the song. It's like a perfect counterpoint to the more upbeat music of the verses/chorus. The piano part in the bridge is very nice too.

    Thematically, it does express the generational divide and what happens when Arthur's family starts growing apart over time. That's one of the themes of the album -- the passing of time. The album covers about 50-60 years of this family? From WWI through Korea, at least. With the bombardment of WWII in the middle. That's a lot of time. A lot of things happen. People change, the days aren't so young and innocent. And as this song shows, sometimes you just have to vent and say what's on your mind. That things will never be the same, and you just have nothing further to say. It's sad, but too often is a part of life.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2021
  21. jethrotoe

    jethrotoe Forum Resident

    Location:
    United States
    "Nothing to Say" is probably the most universally relatable song on Arthur. It's also one of the weakest. It's not that I dislike it, I just don't think it's as interesting or strong as some of the other material on this album (particularly on Side A, which is some of The Kinks' strongest material in their entire discography.)

    There's some good stuff here though. Nice piano riff, especially at the beginning. Nice guitar. Nice bass. Nice horns. I like the riff (is that guitar? Bass? Horns? All of them?) just before the "those happy days we spent together" bridge. Speaking of which, that bridge, which comes out of nowhere, sort of reminds me of the bridges in "Victoria" and "Yes Sir, No Sir." The problem is, Ray's voice sort of strains during the bridge in "Nothing to Say," especially in the "how the days go by!"--why didn't Ray re-do the vocals here? Then again, maybe he left it in due to the emotion that that strain conveys? Like he's literally crying out or in pain.

    As for the lyrics, I like them. It's strange when you grow up and you cannot talk to or connect with the people you care most about or who are closest to you. You just cannot relate anymore. People have their own boring lives. Pretty observant for a not-yet-25 year old guy to write. I cannot think of another song like this. It reminds me of the line in "Shangri-La" where Ray sings, "The neighbors call they say they think that you should know, they say their lines, they drink their tea and then they go, they tell you business in another Shangri-La." So many adult relationships boil down to small talk and pleasantries but not anything substantive. The song also hearkens back to "Young and Innocent Days" during the bridge..."Those happy days we spent together, we thought our world would never change, how the days go by, and thing will never be the same!"

    There's a level of derision in these lyrics too: "It's best that we go our separate ways" "I gotta go soon cos I'm getting bored" "all the words you spit from your face, add up to nothing, I've got nothing to say," which is sort of interesting. It's like a rally against small talk. If your relationship boils down to noisy neighbors, Auntie Mable, minor health afflictions, and insurance, what's the point of talking or maintaining a relationship, according to the speaker, at least? But then, I guess, what is worth talking about?

    A couple of other notes:

    Interesting there's no small talk about the weather in here.

    A very different song from Jethro Tull's "Nothing to Say."
     
  22. jethrotoe

    jethrotoe Forum Resident

    Location:
    United States
    Beautifully written. Funny...I read your entire comment after posting mine and we hit on a lot of the exact same stuff!
     
  23. jethrotoe

    jethrotoe Forum Resident

    Location:
    United States
    Just listened to the song again and tried to focus on stuff I hadn't focused on much before.

    Avory is really bashing the heck out of his drums, isn't he?

    The backing vocals are nice...kind of haunting.

    Nice arpeggios from Dave around 1:50.

    The New Orleans jazz-ish brass at the end is sort of a precursor to Muswell Hillbillies and beyond.
     
  24. Zeki

    Zeki Forum Resident

    Not just you, it is the same. Sounds as if his nose is congested.
     
  25. donstemple

    donstemple Member of the Club

    Location:
    Maplewood, NJ
    Great minds, as they say!

    The Turtles already did that in "Happy Together"! "so happy together... how is the weather?...."
     

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