The Kinks - Album by Album (song by song)

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by mark winstanley, Apr 4, 2021.

  1. ThereOnceWasANote

    ThereOnceWasANote Forum Resident

    Cape May, NJ
    I hear a little in the title track but it also pre-dates his breakthrough album so it's after the fact.
  2. donstemple

    donstemple Member of the Club

    Maplewood, NJ

    I’ve only heard this album for the past two weeks or so. I hear the same band from Everybody’s in Show-biz. But the songs are cleaner, recorded with more polish, some are more mellow. Vocally I hear Dave more, which is a plus in my book.

    I have a few early standouts, but others haven’t really grabbed me yet. It does sound much more mid-late 70s radio friendly. My opinion is this must be what Ray and the boys wanted to do, and who are we to judge that? Is this the first “collection of songs without a theme” since Something Else? The label change may have prompted Ray to sort of start over and just focus on tut songwriting craft, rather than worry about concepts and storylines.

    As far as this discussion of Toto and Billy Joel, I like many Toto songs and have heard most if not all of Billy Joel’s discography, and am a pretty big fan. I don’t hear anything like that on this album.

    I may have gotten some slack for mentioning Styx during Headmaster day and I meant that with no disrespect. I’m not talking about Dennis DeYoung theatrical Styx (shhh, I do like that too :hide: ), but rather the Tommy Shaw prog(?) Styx — a la Man in the Wilderness Styx. That’s a damn good song.

    Anyway, I don’t hear that on Sleepwalker at all. There are some great Davies melodies and lyrics in these cleaner, bit more straightforward songs.

    Looking forward to diving in and reading all of your thoughts on this batch of songs.
  3. The late man

    The late man Forum Resident

    Lord, so much great insight in these pages, so many things I'd love to comment about. But it's become difficult to find the time to read everything, let alone to write answers !

    Avid @Wondergirl , I didn't meet my wife on Anarchy in the UK, but we did sing a 100% vocal version of it on a small Parisian theatre stage as members of my brother's pop choir. Quite something it was.

    Also, Avid @markelis 's grandma is already a legend on this thread, I'm glad we're meeting her again !

    Lider Maximo @mark winstanley did an ever greater job than usual preparing the ground for a reappraisal of the Arista albums.

    For me, it's very difficult to separate personal motives and "objective" musical/lyrical stuff when reviewing these years. As I already said, 1976-77 is kind of a landmark for me, it separates fairyland 60s/early 70s from the conscious world that came after, when I turned 6; also we moved house in 1977, and for then on there was "the old house" and "the new house" (in the same city, but it's my only change of setting for all of my childhood). 60s-early 70s music was my elder sister's music. She was 8 years older than I, and she was all flower power, with long hair, flowery dresses (as I picture them in my mind, for all I know I might be inventing them), the first songs she wrote on her guitar... She changed a lot after that, went along with the new sounds as they came up, and then she passed away much to soon, at 31, long time ago now. But to the child in me she's still this long-haired elder sister that introduced me to the Beatles and the like, strumming her brown folk acoustic guitar that is still hanging beside my desk and teaching me to play this Murray Head 1975 song from the Say it Ain't So album (not sure of the title) on the flute along with her. For all of these reasons, I guess the 1976-1977 landmark still affects me a lot, and much of what I'm throwing on Ray's post 1976 work has nothing to do with him !

    And this is something else I like about this thread, as Avid @Fortuleo spotted it (and also, I much prefer Black and Blue to Some Girls. You'll notice that what separates them is... the year 1977. There's a pattern there, definitely!) : our Leader's genious is to start every album review with, what is your personal experience of it ? So right from the start, we can't pretend that our appreciation is not grounded in our personal history. We're never tempted to pretend our opinion is the only valid one, and this does a lot to prevent potential ego conflicts.

    As a matter of fact, I approach these differences in opinions much like the deaths of important characters in the Game of Thrones series: I dread them, but they're the reason why the show feels so real.
  4. Vangro

    Vangro Forum Resident

    We can judge it by saying we don't like it, can't we? Personally I don't like "mid-to-late 70s radio friendly" rock music much.
  5. All Down The Line

    All Down The Line Senior Member

    I thought Toto were actually friends with one of the name punk or CBJB's band's and shared bills?
  6. All Down The Line

    All Down The Line Senior Member

    Gary unfortunately saw this period of the Kinks as having somewhat Aristed development!
  7. zipp

    zipp Forum Resident

    markelis, DISKOJOE, Steve62 and 4 others like this.
  8. mark winstanley

    mark winstanley Certified dinosaur, who likes physical product Thread Starter

    Well that sure was a big weekend.... anyway, ready or not, here we come

    Life On The Road.

    stereo mix (5:01), recorded 1, 2 Oct, 1976 at Konk Studios, Hornsey, London

    Ever since I was a child,
    I loved to wander wild
    Through the bright city lights,
    And find myself a life I could call my own.
    It was always my ambition
    To see Piccadilly,
    Ramble and roam around Soho
    And Pimlico and Savile Row,
    And walk down the Abbey Road.
    So I saved all my money
    And packed up my clothes,
    And I said good-bye to my friends
    And my folks back home.
    And I left for a life of my own.
    I left for a life on the road.

    I'm a real hungry tyke,
    And I know what I like.
    And I know where I'm goin':
    To those bright city lights.
    Oh yeah, oh yeah,
    This time I'm gonna get there.
    I'm bound for a life on the road.
    Give me life on the road.
    I said life on the road.

    When I arrived in Euston,
    I was little more than a child.
    And I didn't know then
    That the dives and the dens
    Would be so vulgar and wicked and wild.
    Mama always told me
    The city ladies were bawdy and bold.
    And so I searched night and day
    To catch a kissable lady,
    But all that I caught was a cold,
    'Cause those stuck-up city ladies
    Didn't notice me walk by.
    Now I've got holes in my shoes
    'Cause I've been walkin' the streets all night.
    And I'm livin' the life that I chose.
    Livin' my life on the road.
    I said life on the road.
    I want life on the road.
    Life on the road.

    I was standing with the punks in Praed Street,
    When a muscle man came my way.
    He said, "Hey, are you gay?
    Can you come out and play?"
    And like a fool, I went and said, "O.K."
    Ever since I was knee high,
    I thought the city was paved with gold.
    But I've seen so many losers
    And down and out boozers
    Who were tired of bein' bought and sold.
    City women are a tease,
    But I'd really love to please.
    Now I've got blood shot eyes
    'Cause I've been walkin' the streets all night.
    And it sure knocks you out on the road.
    And I'm livin' my life on the road.
    I said life on the road.
    Life on the road.
    I want life on the road.

    One of these days,
    I wanna go home,
    Visit my friends,
    And see all the places that I used to know,
    And say good-bye to a world that's too real;
    Good-bye to a world that's forgotten how to feel.
    And it's slowly usin' me,
    And there's no security.
    Sometimes I hate the road,
    But it's the only life I know.
    But I'm livin' the life that I chose,
    So I'll live out my life on the road.

    Give me life on the road.
    I said life on the road.

    Written by: Ray Davies
    Published by: Davray Music Ltd.

    Ok, this is my alternate take.... sometimes you've got to make time lol
    Although it may seem like Sleepwalker has been a long time favourite for me from my comments, it is actually quite new, and one of the last albums I came to from the band.
    The first two albums only got the plastic cracked just before the start of the thread, and the albums after Word Of Mouth only got bought just before we started the thread. The solo albums that I have, only got bought around the time we were into something else.... So aside from those, Sleepwalker is one of the last albums I got to from my original collection of Kinks albums.

    I had always considered this to be a song about touring, and I think it has a subliminal message about that, because it really signals that the band are about to take this touring the US thing by the horns, and I still believe it is a statement of intent, because Ray is announcing to the world we're back, I'm not going to moan about touring and the like, because it is part of who I am, not just something I do.

    But when you look at the lyrics here more closely, it is almost like something the Pogues would have written about leaving home and ending up on the Main Old Drag.

    The first verse sets up his childlike wonder of the bright city lights, almost like a starlet wanting to make it in Hollywood or something. He talks of all the places he wants to see. They are places famous to him, and some to the broader community, that he wants to get in and under and see what makes them tick.

    The short verse, where the song launches into full Kink-rock mode, reiterates that sentiment, and we have him stating that it is happening now, and his life on the road gets launched.

    In the next section we really hit a full straddle of rock, and Ray's vocal delivery is magnificent. The way the lyrics and the music accent together is beautiful and each enhances the other.
    Essentially he says that the place was outrageously hedonistic and he essentially just wanted to get with one of these wicked ladies that his mum had told him about, but it didn't work out that way, They shunned him, he was still probably a nice boy and that wouldn't have attracted them.
    Typically being shunned leads him to refer to them as stuck up, and we get a sentence here that essentially suggests that quite a bit of time passed in this verse, as his shoes are now full of holes from the walking around the place he has done.

    The next verse shows somewhat of an assimilation to that hedonistic nightmare he described, as now he is hanging with the punks on a street corner. Praed Street outside the Paddington Tube station.
    At this point he is propositioned by a gay guy or so it seems, and contrary to some opinions, it doesn't appear that he's too interested in this, he says ok, but he also refers to himself as a fool for doing so. It seems he is putting together a narrative of the hedonistic lifestyle leading him astray from who he really is/was?

    To some degree he goes on to rationalise this train of thought with the idea that ever since he was a little tacker he thought the streets were paved with gold, and he goes on to describe his personal thoughts on that matter now. Losers and boozers tired of being bought and sold
    Those women are still teasing him, and he would really like to please them, but he's got blood shot eyes and is a living wreck.... That life of excitement had left him a burnt out shell, and it wasn't all he thought it would be.

    This is where the dynamic drops in the music, and he reflects on his life.
    He longs to go home and see his friends, and remind himself of where it is he came from, because this world he is in now is just too real, and full of heartless people.
    Sometimes he hates this, but now it is all he knows...

    This is somewhat of a tragedy... not sure if it is more Shakespearean or Dickensian, but there are a lot of underlying issues in here.
    From my experiences it sounds like a lot of addicts I have known, who would love to go home but they rationalise themselves out of it with internal discussions about shame and guilt, and other useless emotions that drag us down the dark road further, rather than the humbling act of returning home to recover, and 99 out of a 100 times being met with relief and love, and not the judgement and persecution they were expecting.

    Anyway, I still think that there is an underlying hint at the band hitting the US concert stages with a vengeance, but the story as read literally, is a harrowing tale of the bright city lights seducing and destroying. Ending up in the seedy backstreets and feeling there is no way out.

    Of course it could be a sort of metaphorical picture of how Ray feels about the music business too?
    Some lines from the original take that still seem relevant ....
    "And I Said Goodbye To My Friends" is quite a poignant line, because as we know Ray has sung many songs and lines about his friends ... across the river, wondering what they would think now, and all the other references. In this first verse we get a subtle line that really brings home the fact that to run all over the world in a rock band, requires the leaving behind of friends and family, to a large degree. In fact, just the adult life itself seems to require this. I know personally that I rarely get a chance to hang out with friends, because either I am busy, or they are.... it happens, but it isn't like my younger years where I had time, and hanging out with friends was the majority of it, even when I was playing in bands ... though not touring the world.

    The last verse speaks to the reality of being overexposed to the world. The world can be just too real, and when you realise how many people do not seem to feel, it can be a real cut to the bone issue.
    But he is living this life that he chose and he is going to make the best of it.
    He can see the pitfalls, but it is the only way he knows how to live now.
    Musically this is great
    We open with an organ, and in the background a piano supports it almost subliminally.
    Ray comes in with a reflective vocal that is all heart and soul, and I personally love hearing him sing this way. Ray is a great character actor with his vocals, and I certainly like that as a change, or to mix it up, but when he is just singing from the heart with no vocal costume, I love that.
    It is a sincerity of heart that I appreciate a lot, in a world full of faker emotions.

    The guitar chord hits and we move into the rock and roll band the Kinks. It actually sounds like a live take to me. It isn't a perfect transition, but it is, if that makes sense.
    The lead guitar comes in with a riff that is reminiscent of the rolling hills he walks down to get to those city lights.
    Gosling is laying down some great Jerry Lee underneath.

    The band is tight as a drum and the linking sections are just brilliant. We get walking up passages that are just perfectly in sync and they are beautiful accents that lift the track even further.
    There seem to be a lot of excellent ascending patterns in this song, and up to this point it is the descending patterns that have stood out to me, that is interesting in itself.

    Dave adds his characteristic backing vocals and it lifts this further again.
    Also throughout the song Dave is adding little bits and pieces. I personally love his riffing in the chorus.

    The rock section of the song is just blindingly good rock and roll, and it is a while since we have heard unadulterated rocking from The Kinks, and it is a welcome return for me.

    Then comes the all important and poignant end, bridge-type section. we revert to the organ and piano, but this time the piano is forward and the organ is further back..... It sort of fades and slows somewhat, as Ray sinks deeper into reflection, and those backing vocals ... I believe the younger terminology is "fire"
    Then almost begrudgingly, we roll back into the full punching life on the road chorus.

    This is a great song, and it opens this album with power and poignancy.
    It seems like the drums could come up in the mix a little, and to some degree there isn't as much punch as there could be, but it certainly still packs a punch just as it is.

  9. Vangro

    Vangro Forum Resident

    Agree that this is a great song, probably the best song on a Kinks' album since "Sweet Lady Genevieve". Now that Ray (with or without the prompting of Mr. Clive Davis) has unleashed himself from the self-imposed shackles of having to write to a storyline the words just pour out of him in this song. It works as a picaresque tale of an innocent soul adrift in the big city, an area Ray has covered before, but still has a kind of defiance to it that does indeed make you wonder if there's a subtext about the Kinks in there. It's poignant but also has a lot of humour - I imagine that wasn't a cold our protagonist caught, for instance.

    Musically this much less stiflingly slick and polished than most of the album and has a bit vim and verve which is not exactly punky but couldn't be mistaken for REO Speedwagon either. The only problem I had is that the rest of the album seemed like a bit of a disappointment after this track.
  10. ajsmith

    ajsmith Forum Resident

  11. ajsmith

    ajsmith Forum Resident

    1978 TV appearance, some ITV show. Rodford on bass and Edwards on keys by this point:

  12. Vangro

    Vangro Forum Resident

    Even though I'm not a fan of this album, Ray's vocals are great on it.
  13. croquetlawns

    croquetlawns Forum Resident

    This is a great way to start the album, and I like that 'old rocker' Ray is aware of current trends with his reference to punks. I played this CD twice through today for the first time in a couple of years, and the big shock approaching things chronologically is the simple and clean production, especially on the guitar - it's a long way from the how the theatrical albums sounded not so long ago! Also, welcome back Dave, you have been mostly MIA for the last few albums.

    While many feared to try the theatrical albums, for me it was the Arista albums I feared, and it was only after seeing the songs from this era performed on the dvd that comes with the Kinks at the BBC box that I took the plunge. They're not my favourite, but each has some excellent tracks.
  14. Zeki

    Zeki Forum Resident

    Life On the Road:
    From the opening notes, “Ever since I was a chid I loved to wander wild…and walk down the Abbey Road,” I’m hooked from the get-go. Are the Kinks going back to being the Muswell Hillbillies? Or is The Tramp from Preservation singing? This is wonderful.

    “So I save all my money…” Ray sings with the slightest crack in his voice while the organ gently accompanies him. Then the singer emphatically declares, “I left for a life on the road.”

    The answer to whether it’s the Hillbillies or The Tramp comes roaring through and it’s a resounding “no” as the sound of the guitars, drums and rock and roll explode from the speakers.

    “I’m a real hungry tyke
    And I know what I like…
    Oh yeah, oh yeah”

    And we can see that The Kinks have returned to being a rock band circa ‘Lola’ or, more apt at least lyrically, ‘Everybody’s In Showbiz.” Certainly a throwback to something earlier in the discography…at least this far into the song.

    This is a barn-burner of of an opener with the clue that it’s mainstream 1977 coming along about at the halfway mark when it leaves Showbiz behind. At that point, Gosling steps in with the AOR swirly-organ-doing-the-add-color-thing and it rocks along until the repetitive ending.

    It’s a good solid song and a nice start to the new album. And, oh yeah, oh yeah it goes on the (preliminary) playlist.
  15. Fortuleo

    Fortuleo Used to be a Forum Resident

    I’ve always adored the slow melodic intro. It lasts for one minute and I love it as if it was a full little masterpiece of a song on its own, right up there with Schooldays as a tender and frail opening. Except the Idiot Dunce is not the next song, it’s the same one! So, yes, I like the rocking core of the song a little less. I could try pretending it’s because it’s not wild enough or something, but truth is, it's all my own fault : I’m just a bit reluctant to go along for the ride because I want to stay back, reminiscing in the slow aching intro, hoping it will never end. And when it returns, near the end, it's marvelous, and I really wish they would've finished right there, without the rocking Education-like coda. To me, this coda move is an emotional mistake, efficient for future live renditions, but not here.
    I never understood the lyrics or even paid close attention to them before reading our supreme leader’s supreme introduction. As I said before (and I understand how it can be counterintuitive since it’s the Kinks we’re talking about…), I’m not a lyrics guy. I listen to them only when they become music. But in general, I still “get it” because the music does the work. But Life on the Road is a weird one : from the title and the musical structure, I too always assumed it was a song about, well, being on the road! A more heroic Here Comes Yet Another Day, if you will. The rock’n roll dream, baby. But no, as it happens, it’s a personal and reflective masculine reworking of earlier Kinks songs, like Starstruck or Big Black Smoke, the bright city lights and their trappings for the nowhere kid. It's a bit mysterious, since Ray Davies was born and raised in the big city.
    And then, this morning it struck me : this is Ray's UK interpretation of a Springsteen tune. Ray’s own version of (and answer to) Thunder Road, with his customary wit and usual relativistic tongue in cheek observations standing in for Bruce's romanticism. And the following tune is even called Mr Big Man, like a certain sax player!!
  16. ARL

    ARL Forum Resident

    "Life On The Road"

    The opening is great - it sounds like the early 70s Kinks that made "Get Back In Line" and "God's Children" are still in the building. It then switches up into an upbeat chugging rocker that sounds like it would fit reasonably well onto Show-Biz - but it also brings to mind Queen's "Don't Stop Me Now" (which didn't exist yet). The words seem to tumble non-stop from Ray as we take a hectic tour of London's low spots. It's certainly a very striking opener and sets the scene nicely for what is to come over the rest of the album.

    I never noticed how low the drums were mixed on this album until the last time I played it a couple of weeks ago.
  17. pantofis

    pantofis Senior Member

    Berlin, Germany
    "Life On The Road"

    A very muted intro immediately makes me yawn and dwindles any excitement. There is simply no engaging melody, just some whining.
    Then okay, the track shifts into rock mode with guitars left and right and the drums sensitively keeping time. And then that polyphonic string synthesizer that just screams mid-70'es desperation. Overall a very cold and detached production.
    But worst of all, through the whole time there's no real melody, no hook to hold on to.
    The only good thing I find is Ray's amazingly flexible voice. The way it soars is quite something.
    But on the whole Ray sounds so utterly spent and defeated. It seems as if he threw out the baby along with the bathwater when he abandoned his campy concepts.
  18. The late man

    The late man Forum Resident

    I love this song. It's my favorite on the album, and it's the reason why I listened to the other songs to begin with. Much like 20th Century Man, it works as the very cool and attractive guy or girl knocking on the door and gaining entrance to the party for his less attractive friends half-hidden at the back. I'm not sure I would have paid much attention to the other tunes were it not for Life On The Road chaperonning them.

    I also love the slow intro, but I enjoy the entry into rock territory as well. I love the way the band de-structures the chord progression with those bass/guitar off-beat licks that make them sound more elaborate than they are. After the first chorus, the verse is, once again, a classic "Let it Be" progression, but you don't really notice it, thanks to this recurring trick of playing for instance D Db D Eb instead of just D (1'45), which makes the song almost impossible to render on one's own.

    I have a major complaint, though : the "give me life on the road" chorus is a huge let down compared to the rest of the song. Of course it's an absurd complaint, because it all stems from what I was expecting to hear the first time I listened to the song. Considering the craft that was put into modulations in the rest of the tune, I expected a soaring chorus, with more elaborate chords changes, instead of this 2-chords ordinary movement. Lyrically, it makes sense, of course : after wandering and meandering in the dark city streets, the singer sets his straight purpose on the road with resolve. But maybe this effect could have been reached in a more subtle way.

    I often get this thing, where the expectations I had the first time I listened to a song define my relationship to it for years to come. Sometimes it fades away with time, but rarely completely so. I even remember the first time I consciously listened to "Yesterday" as a kid. I love the song, but I had the distinct impression that this chorus was incomplete. It never quite left me, and actually it became one of the reasons I find the song excellent.

    A few years ago, we organised thematic concerts with a few friends in the basement of a bar. One night, the theme was "enchancement", which meant we were expected to sing improved versions of existing songs that we thought could have been better - you know, this kind of songs where the verse is great but the chorus does nothing for you, or the reverse, or songs where the lyrics are so bad they spoil a good music, whatever. I came up with my own version of Yesterday, with a longer chorus, and announced that from now on my version would be the only one and this McCartney guy would have to understand.

    We had a good laugh. Weirdly, my version of Yesterday didn't catch on and I guess even I had forgotten how it went a few days later. But it's like taking over world leadership, if you don't try you'll never succeed.

    I still have to write a better Life on the Road, though.
  19. Ex-Fed

    Ex-Fed Not Fed Ex

    New York State
    “Life on the Road”:1977 was an exciting time. The Kinks had abandoned the concept stuff, which we loved, and were going back to being a regular rock band, and we were so looking forward to that! The band was already all over the media. Sleepwalker was an event. I bought the album and brought it home and put it on my Dual turntable. I was ready to be knocked out. “Life on the Road” came on. I listened intently. It seemed okay at first, and then less so, and then really less so, and the color must have drained from my face. I smiled bravely, but my heart sank. It wasn’t very good, was it? The song was really trying hard, and the Kinks were doing their best to sell it, and I was really determined to like the thing, and here came the synthesized strings, and the tempo changes, and the chorus, over and over. The inescapable fact was that the song was dull. Commonplace. And, in a litany of London streets and neighborhoods, can you really mention Abbey Road? Hasn’t that been taken by another band? Berkeley Mews, as a location, had been precise and perfectly chosen, just like old Soho and Denmark Street and Willesden Green. Not Abbey Road. Perhaps this new phase of the Kinks wasn’t going to be easy. And next came “Mr. Big Man.” “Mr. Big Man / He very small.” Oh, my God. To feel the descent of despair at the beginning of a Kinks album—this was something new.
  20. Steve62

    Steve62 Vinyl hunter

    This album is going to be a roller-coaster of feelings and opinions if the opening song is any indication. It’s a lively opener sung and played with great skill and enthusiasm. In the confines of rock music’s standard structures it works as well as it should: I’m not expecting to hear The Cure or Talking Heads. The song has done its job nicely - I’m warmed up and looking forward to the next song. I just hope that one of the most gifted songwriters of the previous 14 years will have something interesting to say.
  21. Vangro

    Vangro Forum Resident

    Yes, the Abbey Road mention is a bit jarring, there's only one reason anyone would ever want to walk down it! Also (as Ray himself could tell you) Londoners call Holloway Road, the Holloway Road, but does anyone call Abbey Road, the Abbey Road? Until the group who shall remain nameless, no-one had ever heard of it, even in London.
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2022
  22. ARL

    ARL Forum Resident

    Not so much down it, as across it.
  23. Endicott

    Endicott Forum Resident

    Life On The Road

    We drop the needle on the Arista years. "Life On The Road" is the song we hear.'s a very, very good one -- first game in the new ballpark and the leadoff hitter strokes a sharp single to center.

    Ray's elegiac vocal at the beginning sets the tone, with a quick reference to The Band That Shall Not Be Named (and he doesn't name it either). Dave's guitar then elbows in sharply, like the starting gun at a track meet, and we're off and running.

    The song is a half-serious, half-playful mission statement -- that verse about the chance encounter with the musclebear never fails to make me chuckle. ("Knee-high" probably cost the song some airplay. It was 1977.) Musically it's a strong rocker buoyed by Dave's crunchy guitar and a merry Ray melody -- it sounds to me like a more concise version of "Education". Most importantly, after all the handwringing about the label change, this sounds like a Kinks record.

    Excellent opener. We'll see if the album sustains its early momentum...
  24. The late man

    The late man Forum Resident

    Guy from the country gets to London, he goes to see Abbey Road because of the Beatles, what's weird about this ? The song is about a character in the 70s, not Ray.
  25. Vangro

    Vangro Forum Resident

    That Ray Davies would add to the Beatles mythology on one of his own albums? It kind of dates the song, whereas Soho is timeless. Also, were people, other than American tourists, making pilgrimages to Abbey Road in 1977? I suppose so, seems like more of a modern phenomenon to me.

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