The Kinks - Album by Album (song by song)

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by mark winstanley, Apr 4, 2021.

  1. Steve E.

    Steve E. Doc Wurly and Chief Lathe Troll

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY, USA
    Nobody has mentioned the Van Halen cover? Or did I miss it? I think it was one of the more-played songs on the covers-heavy Diver Down. Geez, it's not as good as I remembered (IMO). Sounds pretty thrown away.

     
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  2. mark winstanley

    mark winstanley Certified dinosaur, who likes physical product Thread Starter

    Yea, I meant to mention it.
    I got to it later, and by the time I heard it nothing was going to supplant the One For the Road version.
    It's pretty decent though. VH must have been Kinks fans
     
  3. Steve E.

    Steve E. Doc Wurly and Chief Lathe Troll

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY, USA
    Great, smart comments on these songs already. I agree that it's pretty much a double-A single, even stronger than "Set Me Free"/"I Need You." It's also the perfect choice of an introduction to an album that is going to adequately support the quality, direction, and subject matter of these two songs (even if these are the two of the strongest cuts on it).

    "Till (sic) the End of the Day" has a short introductory "verse" (in the 1920's-1930's sense of the word) that never comes back, yet is strong and hooky enough to have returned.

    "Baby I feel good, from the moment I rise..."

    which then goes into what will be the refrain in the remaining verses: "From morning...." etc.

    The song is musically fantastic. Ray is applying the YRGM style to a composition that is chordally much more complex. There are SIX chords in the body of the song (till the end, where we hear another). Yes, same number are in ADAAOTN, but in that song they are arrived at by taking the initial riff and transposing it up a fifth (granted, in a very clever way). Here, the six chords are an integrated part of a rich, non-modulating song structure.

    Someone pointed out that Ray's demo of "This I Know" (I think it was that one) used the trick of putting positive lyrics to a sad melody. Similar thing going here. If you didn't understand English, you might well presume that this was a very angry song. In fact, it's surprising to realize how positive the words are on paper. The effect of the cognitive dissonance between the words and music is that the song is defiant. I don't listen to the song and feel like life is easy. If "you and me" are free, it's probably because we are fighting to be free. And that last chord, with the ringing 9th in it, feels very tense and unresolved. Even though they are using power chords that don't seem clearly major or minor, Ray is singing in a bluesy minor key, and the progression of the main hook riff "spells out" a minor 7th chord.

    (EDIT: actually, the chords ARE clearly minor or major. The intro chord is a D major, then the D in the verses is minor --someone is playing that minor third.)


    "Where Have All the Good Times Gone" -- I love Dave's high vocal on "Won't you tell me?" It's pretty, sweet and poignant, softening the song in an unexpected way.

    Is it a stretch to say that the main riff is used by Nirvana in "Blew," the leadoff song to "Bleach"? Listen at 0:45. I guess, really, the Kinks have used this before, in "Tired of Waiting."

    Who is playing those great drums on these songs? Wasn't Mick Avory temporarily on the outs? In the past I'd heard it was Clem Cattini on much of Kontroversy, but I also have a vague sense that this has been disputed.

     
    Last edited: May 14, 2021
  4. ajsmith

    ajsmith Senior Member

    Location:
    Glasgow
    Ah, well... we’re back in the land of confusion drums wise here. Talmy definitely used Cattini on most and possibly all of the tracks on Kontroversy, (I still don’t totally understand why as Mick had already proved himself) but the extent to which there are exceptions is disputed. Mick Avory remembers that the only track on that album he was on is WHATGTG, Hinman confusingly credits Avory as being on the B -side but not the album version (and as we all know, they are the same recording) but also claims Mick is possibly on 2-4 of the other album recordings! So, uh, no idea, other than it’s almost certainly Cattini on TTEOTD.
     
  5. palisantrancho

    palisantrancho Forum Resident

    "Till The End Of The Day"

    The Kinks crank out another riff heavy classic. What stands out for me on both of these songs is how much I love the way Ray sings. So cool and confident, like he knows he has just written another hit. Everyone of these early riff songs are similar, but each totally unique. What a gift to nail this style on every attempt.

    "Where Have All The Good Times Gone"

    Not sure what to say except I like this one even more than the A side. I also love what Bowie did with it. Bowie certainly made the songs his own on Pin Ups. I'm not sure if this is their best single so far, but it's definitely up there. What's amazing is it all came out of being pressured to write a new song. The inspiration was flowing at a rapid pace for Ray and wasn't going to slow down anytime soon.

    @Fortuleo mentioned Alex Chilton and I know Alex covered this song many times live so here is his version. It's no Kinks, but clearly a huge influence on Alex and Big Star. It's a great story that Ray and Alex became friends and drinking buddies in New Orleans soon before Alex died.

     
  6. idleracer

    idleracer Forum Resident

    Location:
    California
    :kilroy: There is a difference between this and "All Day And All Of The Night," but it's minimal. The chords for "ADAAOTN" are I ♭VII ♭III I, and the chords that are performed while Ray is singing "You and me...We live this life..." are I ♭VII ♭III ♭VII. Still, I hear this as being to "ADAAOTN" what "Don't Ever Let Me Go" is to "You Really Got Me." A slightly inferior doppelganger.

    To my ears, "Time Will Tell" is a much better tune, and if they wanted a new single with the old sound, that's the one they should've gone for instead. It opens with a great single note riff before plunging into the power chords, which would've given "Day Tripper" (released at around this time) a run for it's money.
    :kilroy: Hell, why not back a single with similar chords to "All Day, And All Of The Night" with a tune that has similar chords to "Tired Of Waiting For You"? Notice that the opening three chords are G F D. That's the "Fortune Teller" chord progression, which I guess is sort of appropriate, as the title is a question. Earlier in the year, Dave declared that his feet were on the ground, then John Lennon cried out that that's where he wanted his feet to be, and now Ray is asserting that he needs some "bringing down" in order to get his feet back down there. The whole vocal delivery seems to have been inspired by Bob Dylan's "On The Road Again," which was certainly not uncommon in late 1965.
     
  7. Martyj

    Martyj Who dares to wake me from my slumber? -- Mr. Flash

    Location:
    Maryland, USA
    Till the End of the Day and Where Have All the Good Time Gone

    If one waits late enough in the day to log into this forum one finds much of what can be said has been said already. But I have to confess I never thought of these tracks in terms of an A and B side; my exposure has always been via albums. But Mark brings up a clever recognition that this works as a “concept” single of sorts. It likely was not intentional, but…hey…whatever works.

    Fortuleo and Donstemple pinpoint my big takeaway from Till the End of the Day with their use of the term “power pop.” Where one can say heavy metal branched from YRGM, “Till the End…” is the precursor of power pop of the Badfinger/Cheap Trick variety; the power chords are there but melody and harmonies are just as important. And those "aaaa-aaaahhhh" harmonies! Was it ever determined if Rasa was in the studio that day?

    The song is indeed a child of “You Really Got Me.” But unlike that song’s other children—“All Day and All the Night,” and “I Need You”—this one doesn’t look as much like its parent. I’ve always detected a musical diversity in this that are beyond my ability to articulate, but Steve E. and idleracer do it magnificently above.

    As for “Where Have All the Good Times Gone?”, Fortuleo also beat me to citing its Dylan-esque qualities (including a very Dylan-like title). It’s all the more notable for being a Dylan-ish song without sounding like Dylan. Rather, they’ve assimilated it nicely with a specific “Kinks” sound, so much so that the Dylan influence has to be pointed out to some ears.

    My favorite quality of this song is Dave’s harmonizing. He’s got it in a place higher than it can comfortably reside (a characteristic of most of his vocals anyway) but it works wonderfully combined with Ray’s more moderated delivery. It’s a combination that elevates “Lola,” too, and is among my very favorite of qualities of the band’s distinctively characteristic sound. I just wish they did it more often.

    That they later revived the song it in their set list may be less to do with a fondness for it than realizing that after a cover version by a popular artist it now had audience recognition, much the same way they only started doing David Watts and Stop Your Sobbing after they, too, were revived with hit covers.
     
  8. Zeki

    Zeki Forum Resident

    I couldn’t disagree more. (In a nice way.) I think it practically screams Dylan. Until...

    this. Which makes the song. This is my favorite part, too.
     
  9. mark winstanley

    mark winstanley Certified dinosaur, who likes physical product Thread Starter

    Interesting... I don't really hear Dylan here... but there are definitely some tracks on the album that give me a Hwy 61 vibe
     
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  10. palisantrancho

    palisantrancho Forum Resident

  11. Zeki

    Zeki Forum Resident

    Link title and content aren’t exactly the same. Content says “least influenced”, not “was not influenced.” But I think I agree with the examples given. Author overlooked, (or thought this was an anomaly?) ‘Where Have All The Good Times Gone,’ I think. (And if it’s just this one track, “least influenced” is fair).
     
  12. mark winstanley

    mark winstanley Certified dinosaur, who likes physical product Thread Starter

    Yea, I can probably hear that.
     
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  13. palisantrancho

    palisantrancho Forum Resident

    I agree with you. I didn’t give this article much thought. It’s interesting that a few days after I read it, we have a Ray song with a Dylan influence! I’m sure there will be more!
     
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  14. czeskleba

    czeskleba Senior Member

    Location:
    Seattle
    There’s an interview with Mick where he mentions he was having health issues at the time, and also says his membership in the band was “hanging by a thread” (presumably because if his issues with Dave) and those were the reasons. I thought it was supposed to be Mick on Milk Cow, Ring the Bells, and Good Times, Cattini on everything else (which delightfully, is the exact opposite of what wikipedia claims).
     
  15. czeskleba

    czeskleba Senior Member

    Location:
    Seattle
    I think the juxtaposition of "yesterday" and "easy game to play" is far too much to be a coincidence. That had to be intentional. On the other hand "get your feet back on the ground" is a common expression, common enough that Ray had already used it in a song before Lennon, so I'm not so sure his re-use of the phrase had any connection to Help.
     
  16. sharedon

    sharedon Forum Zonophone

    Location:
    Boomer OK
    Cattini recalls the sessions, and much much more, in this great podcast episode:
    Clem Cattini - The Strange Brew
     
  17. wore to a frazzel

    wore to a frazzel Forum Resident

    Location:
    Dala, Sweden
    I wondered how I could express my dissatisfaction with WHATGTG: for some reason I associated it with Eve of Destruction, although the songs are not really similar. But after reading your posts, I realize that Eve of Destruction and WHATGTG has one thing in common: a certain tone in the lead song that
    does not sound sincere. But I think that both P F Sloan och Ray were as sincere as anyone when they wrote their songs: it is just that it is all too easy to be inspired by the way Dylan sings and "hide" in that certain tone. Anyway, WHATGTG is simply not a "proper" song to my ears but remains just some exercise in a certain style. But I'll admit that this has more to do with me than with the Kinks: they just don't seem be consequent enough during this period for me to identify with their lyrics and style.
     
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  18. ooan

    ooan Forum Resident

    Location:
    Scotland
    Pete's membership ended because of Dave !
     
  19. Scottsol

    Scottsol Forum Resident

    Location:
    Evanston, IL
    Did you mean Mick, not Pete?
     
  20. ooan

    ooan Forum Resident

    Location:
    Scotland
    No !
     
  21. bvb1123

    bvb1123 Rock and Roll Martian

    Location:
    Cincinnati Ohio
    "Till The End Of The Day" - Another early classic. They must have really liked it because it was in their live shows for years afterwards, being on almost all their live albums. I don't love it but it's a good song and you can dance to it.

    "Where Have All The Good Times Gone" - Terrific song. Never noticed any Dylan influence but listening to it now I guess I see it a little bit. A great song IMHO. Shows off Ray's prowess at writing simple songs with comllex meanings.
     
  22. Pawnmower

    Pawnmower Senior Member

    Location:
    Dearborn, MI
    Thanks for vouching for the book! I have a copy, but I was a bit put off by how many errors are in the Beach Boys one, that I never dove far into this. I realize they are done by different people. I just didn't know much about Hinman and there were a few frustrating experiences with certain desired info not being included. Though it may be stuff he doesn't know.
     
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  23. zipp

    zipp Forum Resident

    TILL THE END OF THE DAY

    Another great song full of delicious guitar riffs. Ray is now with his girl when he wakes up and when he goes to sleep so he's finally made it to where he wanted to be.

    Thus a happy song, but with some interesting word use. Ray's tendency to repeat himself is avoided here by the use of arise then get up. I think it's fun to use "arise". Can you imagine Ray turning to his wife in bed and saying,"Darling, it's time to arise." ?

    Later in the song he does repeat himself with a second get up, but we can excuse him because this gives him an excuse to rhyme it with sun-up. "Sun-up" is an Americanism which again is fun coming from the oh-so English Kinks.

    Strange things going on with verb tenses too. "You and me WERE free. We DO as we please." A mixing of past and present. The past maybe looking back to the night before and the present for the day to come and to be enjoyed.

    A fine controlled guitar solo which doesn't outstay its welcome. Superb backing vocals with Rasa in there somewhere imho.

    A palpable hit.


    WHERE HAVE ALL THE GOOD TIMES GONE?

    Hey, a second A-side! The Kinks beat the Fab Four to it by a couple of weeks. Another first for Ray and the boys.

    The tune is marvellous and the chorus is sublime.

    But is the song really saying tha past was better? Well, no, I don't think so. Look at these lines :

    "Well, yesterday was such an easy game for you to play
    But let's face it things are so much easier today
    Guess you need some bringing down
    And get your feet back on the ground."

    To me Ray is addressing his parents here saying they need to be brought back to earth and admit that things are actually better today.

    This fits in nicely with Ray's tongue-in-cheek:

    "Ma and Pa look back at all the things they used to do
    Didn't have no money and they always told the truth"

    So Ray has solved his depression at the beginning of the song with a mischievous role-reversal. (It's usually the parents who tell their children to stop dreaming and get their feet on the ground. Here it's the opposite).

    So the last chorus becomes a joyous singalong best to be entoned, as someone said, when coming home from a nostalgic evening at the pub.
     
  24. Pawnmower

    Pawnmower Senior Member

    Location:
    Dearborn, MI
    Hard to believe the NME said "the material's disappointing" on this single. It's their strongest yet. Dave even wondered why the B-Side wasn't the A.

    "Till the End of the Day" wastes no time being catchy as hell. What an exciting intro! Ray makes writing hits seem effortless. Not a very deep song. No great lyrics. Just lots of fun with the band firing on all cylinders. Essential early Kinks.

    "Where Have All the Good Times Gone" - Another great one. There is more inspiration behind this one. "Wondering if I'd done wrong / Will this depression last for long?" Nice loud drums. Good to hear Dave's backing vocals up in the mix. Could have easily been a hit single in its own right.
     
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  25. Wondergirl

    Wondergirl Forum Resident

    Location:
    Massachusetts, USA
    More than likely, this is the first version I heard of this song(Van Halen was everywhere in my early teens...and I hated them then and now, though this cover is not horrendous), followed by the live One for the Road version [Edit to say, then i knew the Bowie version] and THEN only in recent years hearing the 60s version. I think this song really comes to life live compared to the studio version. Not pooping on the original version because it's pretty spectacular.

    Till The End of the Day
    I never understood using "till" as a shortened version of "until". kind of makes me twitchy, but that's my problem. :D
    Anyhoo, this song...i agree with everyone's positive assessment on this one. I love the "yeah" at the beginning of the verses. Somehow it cracks me up.
    and the little rave up at the end is cool. I hear punk being conceived in that bit.
    Another Kinks Klassic.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2021

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