The lack of bass in vinyl rips

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Rocco Carbajal, Nov 23, 2022.

  1. Rocco Carbajal

    Rocco Carbajal Active Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Colombia
    I have listened recently to some digital albums ripped from vinyls in mint conditions

    compared them to their Cd versions, and one things is clear : their bass is lacking compared to their Cd versions

    I searched online and found out that during vinyl mastering, there is the process of Summing low frequencies to mono for vinyl"
    is that the reason why the bass is lacking (un-natural) in those LP rips? if so how could this matter be fixed, on the PC ? getting the bass to be stereo (if that makes sense or possible) ? or may be applying bass boost using Audacity?
     
    Tim 2 likes this.
  2. Strat-Mangler

    Strat-Mangler Personal Survival Daily Record-Breaker

    Location:
    Toronto
    Are you comparing the exact same mastering for vinyl and CD? If not, I'll bet you the CD is compressed a whole lot more which would account for the bassier sound.

    The only other possibility is the system (and ADC) used for vinyl ripping contributes to this bass anemic sound.

    Your profile is empty. What are listening through?

    It would not be possible to change to stereo the bass frequencies, nor is the process of summing the bass to mono done on every single record.
     
    DrZhivago, The FRiNgE, marcb and 3 others like this.
  3. Oelewapper

    Oelewapper Plays vinyl instead of installing it on the floor.

    Not that my needledrops are reference grade, but no notable bass issues though:
    https://www.youtube.com/@QoraxAudio
    Probably depends on the gear used.
    Some cartridges have more bass than others.
     
  4. harby

    harby Forum Resident

    Location:
    Portland, OR, USA
    Here's a small secret, don't share it with anyone: CD's digital audio is better than an LP record.

    A CD can reproduce the 8Hz sea sickness of the lowest pipe organ note, where vinyl must be prevented from reproducing that, both in cutting and in playback. There are limits to what can be cut on a record's groove, where mastering engineers will cut the subsonics, the lowest bass, and indeed, sum more bass to mono to prevent excessive up-and-down modulation. High-frequency reproduction is also limited, along with the play time, and the ultimate volume level above surface noise.

    The equipment used for making the vinyl transcription "rip" recording can and will have an effect on the coloration of sound.

    The quality that is actually recorded by record companies to either vinyl or CD depends on many factors, such as the diligence given to recording tapes correctly.
     
  5. dcarwin

    dcarwin Forum Resident

    Location:
    San Francisco
    Did you do the rips yourself?
     
    Strat-Mangler likes this.
  6. Rocco Carbajal

    Rocco Carbajal Active Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Colombia
    yes exactly

    those Cd's (90's rap and metal ones) are compressed, and been told that their LP versions may be less compressed. that is why I was curious.
    examples of those rips:

    Dr dre 2001

    pantera 3 albums
     
  7. Rocco Carbajal

    Rocco Carbajal Active Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Colombia
    thank you for the note

    I updated my profile.

    I listen only through headphones connected to pc, that has Asus xonar Essense.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2022
  8. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    Not all were compressed. That is an inaccurate blanket statement.
     
    HIRES_FAN and Joy-of-radio like this.
  9. Rocco Carbajal

    Rocco Carbajal Active Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Colombia
    plz pardon my ignorance

    what does it mean exactly by cutting the bass here ?
    1- that the amount been cut is no longer there in the vinyl.
    2- that it is there but during vinyl mastering, was equalized to be behind in the mix, and re-equalizing the vinyl rip on the pc, would get it back?

    thank you.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2022
  10. Rocco Carbajal

    Rocco Carbajal Active Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Colombia
    I said that I listened to some albums, I didn't say that all the 90's (rap-metal) CD's were compressed.

    I have some late 90's rap cd's, that measure Dr 12 & 13
     
  11. Strat-Mangler

    Strat-Mangler Personal Survival Daily Record-Breaker

    Location:
    Toronto
    All depends on the specific mastering for each.

    Personally, I'm not a fan of the bloated midbass sound that I hear very often on CDs of that era. Just makes things sound congested.

    It's highly probable the sound you're hearing is merely the reflection of the equipment of the person who performed the needle drop. If you were to download some from multiple people but of the same album, you'd be shocked at the differences in presentations.

    That could be part of the issue, to some degree... assuming that the fault is not of the ripper and/or his gear. A dedicated headphone amp might provide a better experience overall, as well as having the ability to provide more nuance than merely a difference in bass.

    Since you listen exclusively through headphones, I'd suggest checking out head-fi.org as the entire community is based around headphone listening.

    You'll definitely get far better advice in terms of mastering and most anything else here, though.
     
    The FRiNgE, Tim 2 and Rocco Carbajal like this.
  12. tim185

    tim185 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Australia
    In music production, mixing, I often mono the bass from 100hz or whatever down. I dont care lol, it actually makes it more punchy to my ears ! And thats for stuff that will never be pressed to a record. Just gives it gut punch.
     
    Tim 2 and Rocco Carbajal like this.
  13. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    It's a common stereotype people often parrot all over the internet.

    Vinyl from that era typically won't be an improvement over the original, non-remastered CDs. To date I have never heard any needledrop that sounded better than a well-mastered CD made from a master tape. Zero. And I have listened to needledrops made on 20-30K worth of gear.

    The only situations where needledrops make sense, IME, is where master tapes have been lost, alternate mixes that have never been issued on CD, vinyl-only tracks, etc. Most needledrops are just a waste of time IME.

    Needledrops can sometimes be useful for diagnosing problems or differences in gear.

    Records are a lot more fun to listen to in real time if you want to listen to actual records. Nothing wrong with CDs though, I have a ton of those too.
     
    Iving and Rocco Carbajal like this.
  14. harby

    harby Forum Resident

    Location:
    Portland, OR, USA
    [​IMG]

    See the left side? Can be set to cut sub-bass.

    [​IMG]

    Lo shelf and lo? From dialing a subsonic 15hz to -12 two times on both, up to using lo shelf or lo in combo to add a boost to the reproducible bass while cutting the deepest rumbles.

    These are mastering equalizers that are meant to shape the tonal character that is recorded. The high-pass filters that cut the deepest bass, and "elliptical" eq that merges low frequencies are usually mastering console modules, or in the lathe electronics.

    [​IMG]

    Some amount of equalization can be reversed, but at the expense of increasing the rumble of turntables and the power-wasting fluttering of woofers. I really have not found any vinyl to have musical content below 30Hz emerge from below the noise, which takes exceptional subwoofers anyway. High-speed analog tape also does its own sub-bass limiting by tape characteristics, and the tape for making LPs may be several generations from the masters.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2022
    The FRiNgE, Tim 2, anorak2 and 4 others like this.
  15. coolhandjjl

    coolhandjjl Embiggened Pompatus

    Location:
    Appleton
    Digital media is also summed at low frequencies, 125Hz and lower.
     
  16. tim185

    tim185 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Australia
    I'm going to presume a lot of needle drops are done through consumer mid level converters, ranging down to total junk. It cant not have an effect.
     
    Iving likes this.
  17. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    That won't matter that much. The S/N ratio of vinyl is in the low to mid 70s on the very best day. Even a $200 USB audio interface will do a whole lot better than that. But if you must know, my opinion stands even where much more expensive A/D converters were used. Needledropping will never be as good as having the master tape. Ask any mastering engineer if you don't believe me.
     
    Tim 2 and nosliw like this.
  18. AP1

    AP1 Forum Resident

    Location:
    TX
    Low bass you cannot hear through headphones. You will FEEL it with your BODY. Then LP almost never have low bass, you cannot have it much below 30Hz, commonly 50Hz is the bottom end. Most modern CD masterings have bump at around 80Hz, specifically to allow people with headphones hear what they think is bass, but this is second harmonic of real bass. That may not be done in LP mastering created for use with real speakers.
     
    DrZhivago, marcb, Tim 2 and 1 other person like this.
  19. tim185

    tim185 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Australia
    lol I believe you, every medium known to man is a step down or three from a master tape, of course.
     
    marcb and Tim 2 like this.
  20. tim185

    tim185 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Australia
    There really isn't much of anything to be gained sub 30hz for Rock IMO. Dance, Rap, another story maybe.
    But I'm a rock guy so I care nought.
     
  21. nosliw

    nosliw It's a hairstyle, not real cat ears :P

    Location:
    Ottawa, ON, Canada
    With respect to actual needledrops, I always feel something missing when comparing to hearing the actual record on a proper stereo setup and even comparing to the CD/digital release. And when using software to remove pops/clicks and other sorts of surface noise, there's also the risk to remove any musical information from it, which could make things worse if not done properly. Even then, needledropping requires more time and effort that has a lot of room for error.

    @Rocco Carbajal When cutting the album on a record, there's compromises that had to be made when doing a lacquer/DMM cut. Albums that require a lot of bass will take up more groove information and therefore cannot fit as many minutes on each side of a record as "regular" cuts.
     
    patient_ot and Rocco Carbajal like this.
  22. Tim 2

    Tim 2 MORE MUSIC PLEASE

    Location:
    Alberta Canada
    ????
     
  23. Boltman92124

    Boltman92124 Go Padres!!

    Location:
    San Diego
    :-popcorn::-popcorn:
     
    gregorya and tim185 like this.
  24. quicksrt

    quicksrt Senior Member

    Location:
    City of Angels
    I did some needle drops of the Steve Hoffman mastered 45RPM jazz series titles done about a decade ago. I played some of them last week, they blow away the regular CDs of the same titles. Even plain of 16/44.1 captures, not even 24/96khz which is my standard now, and they sound glorious, deep spacially, smoothest fading reverb trails, and just richness. I was surprised at how good they sounded because I was using such old equipment, like a 70's Marantz receiver as the preamp, and the noise floor on it was not as low as the amps I am now using.

    So it comes down to the mastering and the digital transfer. Hoffman's 45RPMs blow away the OJC CDs of the same titles, as do my needle drops of those records. The bass is fine, rich and detailed, not boomy or too strong. No wonder those RPM sets are now often going for $150 and up each.
     
    formu_la and Chris Schoen like this.
  25. Derek Harold Nicholls

    Derek Harold Nicholls World Class 12'' arms Temaad

    Needle drops depend on what vinyl system you have in the 1st place. If you expect great needle drops from a 1K stystem, forget it. You need to have something in the region of 5K for decent needle drops.

    Cheers
     
    Chris Schoen likes this.

Share This Page

molar-endocrine