The lack of bass in vinyl rips

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Rocco Carbajal, Nov 23, 2022.

  1. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    I don't know what OP downloaded. I have the actual vinyl.

    To the other point, "vinyl rips" are not authorized by any record company or artist that I know of.
     
    c-eling likes this.
  2. Derek Harold Nicholls

    Derek Harold Nicholls World Class 12'' arms Temaad

    No problem if you use for personnel use.

    Cheers
     
  3. Carl Swanson

    Carl Swanson Senior Member

    ... AND using the exact same playback chain from amp through speakers / headphones, meaning rip/DAC or TT/phono stage to the exact same listening chain?
     
    The Pinhead likes this.
  4. The Pinhead

    The Pinhead KING OF BOOM AND SIZZLE IN HELL

    :yikes:
     
  5. Carl Swanson

    Carl Swanson Senior Member

    That will be a downer for those seeking "authorization" or other approval for their private use of music media.
     
  6. Tony Rees

    Tony Rees Forum Resident

    I imagine making vinyl rips for private use is similar legality to ripping CDs for the same purpose - legal if you own the original and do not dispose of it, otherwise not :)
     
    DrZhivago and Tim 2 like this.
  7. ThinWhiteDuke

    ThinWhiteDuke Forum Resident

    Location:
    New Zealand
    Not every country has the same restrictive laws as the US. I suspect that Colombia like NZ will have more fair use rules, we certainly can make lawful backup copies of our own media here in NZ.
     
    Tim 2 likes this.
  8. ThinWhiteDuke

    ThinWhiteDuke Forum Resident

    Location:
    New Zealand
    Hi Jimi, please provide evidence of your employment and delegated authority to restrict the use of language and dictate terms and conditions to others. Are you deputised by his Majesty King Charles? As an Italian resident are you overstepping your authority? :D:D:D:D

    On a more serious note given the wide array of equipment used for the rips, perhaps the playback equipment is suspect? Can you advise all the components in your playback please Rocco, especially the software you are using to listen to your rips? Assuming you don't experience the same lack of bass with other previously ripped files or otherwise acquired digital audio content??
     
  9. ThinWhiteDuke

    ThinWhiteDuke Forum Resident

    Location:
    New Zealand
    Does it matter if your speakers can't play 8Hz and your amp couldn't power them even if your speakers could?

    Rocco - Assumption you are using a computer / laptop thingy to play your rips, can you play your audio CD's on the same device? if so, do you experience the same lack of bass? I'm trying to ascertain if the lack of bass is device specific in your playback equipment or actually rip / file specific?
     
  10. bangkok19

    bangkok19 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Newcastle
    I also use a CD recorder, but I have a mixer in between T/T and CDR.
    I've never had lack of bass, but sometimes I tweak one of the high frequencies
     
    Chris Schoen likes this.
  11. rangda

    rangda Forum Resident

    Location:
    MA
    They are both transducers (by far the most inaccurate part of any system) so this should be expected.
     
  12. Jimi Floyd

    Jimi Floyd Forum Resident

    Location:
    Pisa, Italy
    My dear Sir Duke,
    I said "please", just because that "s" at the end irks my ears, that's it. Yours truly,
    Charles III in disguise
     
  13. nosliw

    nosliw It's a hairstyle, not real cat ears :P

    Location:
    Ottawa, ON, Canada
    Seeing the -.10dB on every track indicate that the vinyl "rip" was digitally edited to make it uniform across all tracks.
     
    Soundslave and c-eling like this.
  14. c-eling

    c-eling They're made of light,We never would have guessed

    Thanks. Figured so.
    Since the OP didn't do these himself, it's going to be near impossible to correctly answer his question. I've not once had issues with capturing bass if the recording/mastering itself is correct. If anything on remasters it's usually a bloated mess :laugh:
     
    patient_ot, Soundslave and nosliw like this.
  15. harby

    harby Forum Resident

    Location:
    Portland, OR, USA
    45 RPM actually does the opposite of what you state.

    First, I want you to picture the record lathe that cuts the signal to the record. A bass note of a particular amplitude will be amplified by the lathe amps, driven to the voice coils of the cutter head, and move the cutter tip by a specific amount back and forth to inscribe the signal. The magnitude of this signal and the width of the cutting is the same regardless of the speed of the vinyl moving underneath the cutterhead.

    Speeding up the surface, instead, uses up the available disk space 35% faster. That same audio that would fit on one side of a 33 will now run into the end of the record prematurely, unless one reduces the volume, allowing the pitch computer to space the grooves closer together. A 45 intrinsically and logically mandates a shorter play time if you don't allow a quieter signal.

    The width required by a groove's audio signal is mainly the amount of mono horizontal modulation, although stereo with a negative-going side channel wave or with a variable-depth cutter can also cut deeper, needing more width. At high levels, the computer, using a preview head, will recognize that the previous groove will be too close or overlapped, and will expand the pitch between grooves. A faster speed, spreading the bass note over a longer amount of groove, doesn't really gain us much in what even the most advanced groove pitch processing can do to pack the grooves together.

    The benefit of a faster speed is in high frequencies. With the high frequency waves spread over a larger groove distance, the waveform isn't packed together, which reduces pinch distortion (where high angles are cut near the size of the stylus tip itself) and increases the allowable signal (where the back of the cutterhead facet would otherwise strike the just-cut groove).
     
    nosliw and WDeranged like this.
  16. I take all of your points. The biggest compromise in mastering a 33 1/3 LP is definitely the requirement for more compression and less treble content in the last third of the groove- the "inner groove." The shortened playing time of a 45, that's just obvious. And there's a visible difference in the amount of space provided between "grooves" for the inner third spiral of a 22 minute 33 1/3rpm 12" LP vs. a 12 minute 45rpm 12" EP.

    But I still contend that 45 mastering improves the ability to put more deep bass content into the groove of a vinyl record. I'd venture that part of the advantage is related to the increased speed at which the record revolves- consequently increasing the momentum at the interface of contact between groove and stylus. Thereby improving the ability to track through challenging passages without jumping the groove, no?
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2022 at 11:45 AM
  17. harby

    harby Forum Resident

    Location:
    Portland, OR, USA
    What does increasing the speed of both cutting and reproduction do for you though? The cut waveform position traced into the vinyl, velocity, and accelerations the stylus experiences, the pressure under the contact point, being the same, to reproduce the same signal magnitude. The slow movements of bass (especially after reduction by RIAA pre-emphasis) is not especially a tracking/tracing challenge, nor are the low frequencies re-equalized by the speed. You get 35% more dust per second?

    How about half-speed-master that 45 for lower cutterhead temperatures and enhanced high frequencies: you've also doubled the formerly subsonic frequency where the cutterhead response starts to roll off along with lathe rumble.

    It's not like where I transcribe a needledrop at 70% speed to enhance the tracking. You are still playing at realtime.
     
  18. Rocco Carbajal

    Rocco Carbajal Active Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Colombia

    I don't play the Cd's directly, I play the flac ripped files on both my desktop and laptop
    the desktop has the sound card Xonar Essence STX II
    once I almost lost my hearing, using this card ! due to the mysterious well known problem of the loud white noise issue :D

    Xonar Essense stx Random LOUD high pitched Ringing Noise?

    none till now knows why does it happen! but still I use it
    on my laptop I'm using CEntrance DACport (small,powerful, and great sounding Dac)
    I listen mainly with Beyerdynamic T90 and sennheiser hd600, though I have closed HP eg : beyerdynamic dt 770 pro (huge bass) & ISK HP2011 (very neutral)


    I didn't mean that the bass on those vinyl rips to be unsatisfactory, actually it is descent, just wondered why the Cd rips bassier?
    I have learnt many information so far. thank you all for your posts.
     
  19. they are the same at 33 and 45 rpm? I don't know, that's why I'm asking. But it isn't intuitive to me that they would be.
     
  20. missan

    missan Forum Resident

    Location:
    Stockholm
    One difference between 33,3 and 45 is the groove will easier move the needle. One could compare to 45 has lower frictioncoeff.
     
  21. Tim Lookingbill

    Tim Lookingbill Alfalfa Male

    Location:
    New Braunfels, TX
    The summing bass to mono answered a lot of questions I had about lack of bass on vinyl I wasn't aware.
    Bass to mono is what I've been trying to do on CD rips with goofy pans in stereo mixes of drums on only one channel. Setting bass to mono is more of a stereo speaker efficiency solution.

    It became a real issue in my car audio recently playing a a live recorded performance where the drums are featured up front and the mic placement created a natural out of balance I couldn't hear on headphones but presented a weaker signal on the right rear channel of my Polks that kicked up the nastiest distortion I've ever heard in a speaker. As a test I played an EDM song I boosted the kick drum bottom end that was full mono and it played perfectly no distortion but with a really big sound.

    This is the live performance that distorted my sedan's speakers where the kick drum isn't centered or mono...

     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2022 at 5:54 AM

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