I've been rereading bits of Tolkien this weekend. The History of Galadriel and Celeborn in Unfinished Tales is the real eye opener. Tolkien wrote so many different versions of their story, it must have been a real challenge for his son to get a coherent narrative. Where did they meet - not settled, when did they leave Valinor - not settled, when and why did they go to Lorien - several choices, why did they stay in Middle Earth after the First Age ends - not settled. When did they seperate, when/where did they reunite - not settled. In some versions they have a son, Amroth, who rules Lorien before them, in other versions they don't. Christopher Tolkien comments that his father clearly intended major revisions of The Silmarillion, to place Galadriel and Celeborn more prominently in the story, but he had barely started. Christopher Tolkien admits the published work (from near completed manuscripts) wouldn't have been what his father ultimately intended, but he couldnt publish "merely projected revisions." This underlines why I took the decision watching this series, around ep3, to just accept where the story goes and not get cross every time a plot point diverts from "the Canon". To repeat myself, the only real 'Canon' works are the two published in Tolkiens lifetime - The Lord of The Rings and The Hobbit, everything else is unfinished and was open to revision including big chunks of The Silmarillion. So let's cut the writers some slack.
I cannot disagree with anything you say here. But the fact that so many of us are very passionate about the written works of Tolkien, and that there doesn’t seem to be an open thread here to discuss them, we’re going to get criticism in this thread. I’m ok with that.
I wouldn't go so far as to say that there isn't open discussion. There is only one person (that many, including myself, have put on ignore) that was going a little too far. I expressed my concerns with some of the characters as the episodes went on, and (at least none to my knowledge) no one has put me on ignore or have been unwilling to discuss. I think as long as you don't act like a complete jerk, most in the thread have been pretty open to discussion.
Don't people realize ALL these stories are simply MADE UP BALONEY, anyway? You name it: Marvel, Star Trek, Star Wars, LOTR... People treat these little ditties and flights of fantasy as if they're canon or someone is altering a history book. Who cares if little details don't jive? Its a sword and sorcery fest dressed up the Tolkien's hobbits and dwarfs. Tolkien dreamly MAKES UP some half story (he didn't finish), his son MAKES UP his version, and the filmmakers MAKE UP their version. So where's the REAL story? I haven't even watched this series (Love LOTR) but come on, I guessing like any drama, you could change the names, turn the elves into cops and make the Orcs and dwarves rival gangs and it would all be the same story of searches, battles and heroism that make up every flight of fantasy. Nothing new under the sun... except window dressings on the same stories. And, yes, they get the bad guy in the The End! I've seen ant fights more interesting than a lot of series people talk about. But, as a writer myself, I say: "If they're bored, they will come!" Not more f**king elves" - CS Lewis. He should be programming for HBO these days.
I don't disagree but maybe you should watch the show before commenting on it. What Jackson missed for me was the strength of the relationships between the characters, which Tolkien nailed. The show lands somewhere in between but much closer to Jackson's vision than Tolkien's.
Good points, and they highlight the absurdity of the argument that “the writers of this show can’t diverge from the canon.” In many cases, and especially so in the case of the ancillary and apocryphal writings Amazon has licensed, the canon is fragmentary and contradictory.
Yes a massive shame. I still think the first one was pretty great. I liked the slight expansion of the story in that one, behind the scenes with Gandalf, Radagast etc . It all seemed to go to turd after they left Beorns place. The abridged fan edit discussed earlier is pretty good.
I tend to agree that these things ultimately don't matter but people are allowed to question things they care about. As I have always said, I ultimately don't care especially because I find Tolkien in books, not in movies and TV shows, others want to see a true representation of Tolkien on screen, as long as theya rgue their point respectfully I see no problem with considering their thoughts.
No film or TV adaptation of any book has ever been 100% faithful to the book, if that’s what you want, don’t watch TV and stick to books.
So true. For me, movies get a bit of a pass, condensing a good book into an hour or two. but if you have a 10 hour season and maybe more! ? Sort of "If a thing's worth doing, do it right". There are IMO examples, like Lonesome Dove, and many others.
If “done right” means doing the Simmarillion, you can point the finger of blame on the Tolkien eatate.
It is worth noting that the TE were never shopping a Second Age show, just the right to a TV show based The Lord of the Rings, as in anything between the covers of the book. Amazon were approached with an idea for a SA show and went in that direction.
I don't want to blame anyone LOL. I realize many object violently to inaacuracies, new characters, and some of the PC stuff thar goes on. The "estate" is to me not relevant, while I realize for some it is. Jackson's LOTR was totally enjoyable, The Hobbit "trilogy" was pathetic. Again IMO.
How about we change Moby Dick into a NAS CAR driver? And Tom Joad into a magic frog? How would work. And while we are at lest rewrite Shakespeare while we are at it.
Yes. As far as I know, they only have rights to the LOTR appendices which are very concise considering his other writings on this period. There is a LOT of open space for the showrunners to fill in the gaps in those appendices ... a LOT. Out of the gate this show is basically an 'inspired by the writings of' show and not a literary representation. People seem to be confusing this point leading to some distress over it's authenticity. There's barely anything to authenticate based on the source material the showrunners have access to. We just need to clear our minds, sit back and enjoy the ride as much as possible . . . . . . and not wonder who Galadriel escaped the full-force onslaught of an explosive pyroclastic cloud without barely a scratch. Yes the writing could be better with some of the weird events like that but overall there is some promise and drive here. This show has some gas in the tank still.
She’s a magic superhuman elf queen, whom we know from the canon survives for thousands of years after the events of this show, not sure why anyone would be surprised she didn’t get taken out by a lava ball (or by an orc arrow when she was riding into the battle against Adar, or by Sauron when had her trapped in his mind prison, etc. etc.) We know going into this show that Galadriel, Elrond, Isildur, and Gandalf (if Meteor Man is Gandalf) aren’t dying anytime soon.
