The Master Flat-Transfer Thread

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by acjetnut, Dec 13, 2006.

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  1. acjetnut

    acjetnut Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    USA
    These [dcc pet sounds and who's next] have been discussed here many times as examples of Steve disconnecting everything in between the tape deck and the a/d and doing it straight as straight can be.
     
  2. ec461

    ec461 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Somewhere
    Go check out the thread I just made - http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?p=2201981
     
  3. acjetnut

    acjetnut Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    USA
    I have it on order, so I can't say what the disc says, but acoustic sounds writes:

    "The original pressings of this album were cut by Bernie Grundman from the same original 2 track master used when Bernie remastered the album this time - all other LP issues (including the CBS 1/2 speed master) were cut from eq copy tapes!"


    Does your copy say Vic Anesini?
     
  4. ec461

    ec461 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Somewhere
    I think they're talking about LP issues.
     
  5. acjetnut

    acjetnut Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    USA

    I think this thread will remain a healthy (and useful) course if it is treated as a way to organize the many (but scattered) times, certain issues are confirmed to be flat transfers.




    One more to add:
    The Beatles EP CD Box set are flat transfers from the ep master tapes
     
  6. czeskleba

    czeskleba Senior Member

    Location:
    Seattle
    Aren't all the Beatles CDs essentially flat transfers?
     
  7. acjetnut

    acjetnut Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    USA
    Abbey Road (the common issue) is definetly not, since noise reduction was used on it.

    Not sure about the others.
     
  8. Chris M

    Chris M Senior Member In Memoriam

    FWIW the hiss levels on that 1983 JPN Abbey Rd disc are pretty close to the standard CD.
     
  9. Rob LoVerde

    Rob LoVerde New Member

    Location:
    USA
    Hey, if you guys REALLY want to drive yourselves up a wall, think of this.

    Most of your favorite recordings only have a 1000 cycle tone on the master to achieve a reference level and left/right balance (for stereo). So, it's then up to the mastering engineer to decide how to align the low and high frequency adjustments.

    SO: On all these "flat transfer CDs", did the engineers use an MRL alignment tape? An STL alignment tape? Did they use an alignment tape that was two-track compensated (for stereo recordings) so they would get the proper low-frequency calibration? Did they go all out and do their low-frequency alignment in record mode using a tone generator? What frequency did they use for low end? High end? Did they adjust azimuth for each and every splice on the master? And on. And on. And on.

    The point of this post is that each and every one of these things makes a difference on how "flat" the transfer is. One engineer's "flat" may be different from another's.
     
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  10. czeskleba

    czeskleba Senior Member

    Location:
    Seattle
    Doesn't "flat transfer" simply mean "No EQ applied"? In which case, wouldn't it theoretically be possible for something to be a flat transfer and have noise reduction?

    And I thought it was open to debate whether the Abbey Road CD has noise reduction.
     
  11. Chris M

    Chris M Senior Member In Memoriam

    I did to. I thought that a noise gate was used in spots but no digital noise reduction was used.
     
  12. acjetnut

    acjetnut Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    USA
    Personally, I consider sonic issues stemming from tape machine calibration outside the realms of whether a disc is a flat transfer or not. Those variances add up to a different set of quirks, whereas putting eq's, compressors, noise gates, or whathaveyous in the signal chain of "playback machine -> console -> recording machine" determines the flat-transfer status.
     
  13. Rob LoVerde

    Rob LoVerde New Member

    Location:
    USA
    It all starts at the playback machine. Different calibration methods can yield very different sonic results. We want things to be simple: "This CD is a flat transfer from the master". I'm just saying it's not that simple.
     
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  14. Chris M

    Chris M Senior Member In Memoriam

    I really don't care of a CD is a flat transfer or not. I just want to sound good..
     
    jmadad, g.z. and Tommyboy like this.
  15. bhazen

    bhazen I Am The Walrus

    Location:
    Deepest suburbia
    Me three.
     
  16. Dave

    Dave Esoteric Audio Research Specialistâ„¢

    Location:
    B.C.
    :agree: Couldn't have said it better myself.
     
    jmadad likes this.
  17. Mal

    Mal Phorum Physicist

    There was a thread not so long ago about how the '87 Abbey Road had a different EQ profile to the '83 disc. The conclusion was that if we assume the '83 disc was "flat" then the '87 one was indeed tweaked.
     
  18. Mal

    Mal Phorum Physicist

    I agree that the goal is the best sounding CD - "flat" or not. For me though the sound of all those early CDs where little or no tweaking was performed is almost always preferable to the bass-cloudless, boosted treble sound so common on modern re-masters. So, in those cases often a "flat transfer" is preferable even if the tapes could ideally do with some judicious EQ.

    The modern approach seems to be to homogenise the sound every time rather than treat each master as a unique sounding tape with unique EQ requirements for the best sound. Under those circumstances I'd rather hear a "flat transfer" over a "McMaster" every time.......
     
  19. BradOlson

    BradOlson Country/Christian Music Maven

    I have compared the masterings of the CDs of some of Amy Grant's early albums with the original Myrrh LPs, and the CDs apparently come flat from the master tapes, I'm guessing.
     
  20. Jamie Tate

    Jamie Tate New Member

    Location:
    Nashville
    Both are credited to Vic.
     
  21. Jamie Tate

    Jamie Tate New Member

    Location:
    Nashville
    But what is flat? To play back analog tape you have to adjust several EQ points. And to do the low end EQ correctly you actually have to record a 100Hz tone and then play it back. I doubt anyone is recording tones on these master tapes to the low frequency playback so they are all adjusting by ear. :shh:

    For Who's Next there was no external EQ unit in line but I do believe Steve adjusted the HF and possibly the LF EQ on the playback tape machine to do the transfer.

    So, even if it's a flat transfer there are still several steps of equalization going on not to mention azimuth and several other adjustments. Analog tape is not the pure format everyone things it is.
     
  22. Jamie Tate

    Jamie Tate New Member

    Location:
    Nashville
    :laugh: I wasn't caught up with the thread yet before my last post. :wave:
     
  23. Rob LoVerde

    Rob LoVerde New Member

    Location:
    USA
    ;) :wave:
     
  24. bdiament

    bdiament Producer, Engineer, Soundkeeper

    Location:
    New York
    Hi BZync,

    I don't believe I did "Shepherd Moons".
    "Watermark" is the only Enya album I can recall working on.

    Best regards,
    Barry
    www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
    www.barrydiamentaudio.com
     
    David del Toro likes this.
  25. Evan L

    Evan L Beatologist

    Location:
    Vermont
    "Watermark" is one sweet sounding CD, Mr. Diament! :D


    "Come Together" on the Abbey Road CD is definitely NR'd....whereas other tracks("Maxwell's Silver Hammer", "Because")have boatloads of tape hiss.


    Evan
     
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