The Money Making Machine Known As UPS.

Discussion in 'Marketplace Discussions' started by dance_hall_keeper, Oct 7, 2022.

  1. dance_hall_keeper

    dance_hall_keeper Forum Resident Thread Starter

    After reading some of the very worthy, and in some cases very sad and disturbing, Posts from this here Thread, I felt the need and obligation as a Member to create my own Thread telling my own recent story.

    I'm now going through a months-long battle with UPS, regarding a refund on the Duties and Tariffs paid to their Brokerage concern earlier this year from a business using UPS as their carrier. The parcel was processed for monies owing by UPS Brokerage in Windsor ON.

    The genesis of this mess was an original shipment I received, with no corresponding accompanying paperwork, followed by me paying the necessary "fees" via phone call. I then had to return the item because I'd ordered the wrong item.

    I received my full refund on the item, as well as shipping and handling, thanks to PayPal. Recovering my payment on UPS "fees"? Not very easy.

    After originally making five phone calls and talking to eight different UPS Agents, with one who was too tired to talk and hung-up on me at the very start of the call, I finally talked to an agreeable chap who emailed me the sheet showing the breakdown of the charges. Possibly it it was their first day on the job or a weak moment?

    I had to have further paperwork sent to me from UPS in order to proceed with a reassessment of the charges from UPS with CBSA (Canadian Border Security Agency, i.e.,Canada Customs), regarding the refund on my Duties payment. That was received, submitted to CBSA and is that is what is still pending.

    After receiving the refund for the original item purchase, I ordered the correct item at an even better deal that the first time, i.e., a lower discount.

    When the delivery attempt notice was left stuck to my front door, the amount shown on the delivery attempt ticket was more than what I’d paid the first time, even though the I’d paid less on this one that the first one. Wot?

    Phoning UPS and trying to get an answer to this "less-money-paid-but-more-duties-owning" paradox got me no closer to neither a feasible answer nor a favourable resolution for me.

    Through back-and-forth phone calls ping-ponging between UPS and CBSA, I saw that the UPS paperwork showed that the Duty Rate they charge was 20%. No need to use a highlighter for me to see it more easily, as it was as clear as could be.

    In one of my numerous phone calls, I was enlightened by a juicy morsel from a CBSA Agent.

    I explained this discovery to CBSA and was informed of the following being to case, at least in Canada: They can charge whatever minutiae fees they want, but the maximum amount of Duty that can be charged on an item for personal use is 18%. They cannot and shall not charge a higher rate than that set by CBSA and the Government of Canada. Nothing more.

    One Agent did in fact observe that in this case, UPS Brokerage is breaking a Canadian Federal law.

    Well ain’t that just swell!

    This sort of nonsense includes music shipments to Members and that's why I'm offering this saga. All carriers seem to be following the same business template, which could be their motto... "Our customers are like mushrooms: Keep them in the dark and cover them with s***".

    My preamble saga leads me to these points to pass on to Members:

    1) Most, but not all, parcels sent via UPS will automatically pass through a UPS Brokerage site upon entering the Country for delivery, depending on the "threshold" for dutiable items that they've set. That's where their "magic" happens.

    2) A parcel using another carrier such as FedEx, HDL, etc. will go through the same Brokerage process. They're all complicit in this practice/practise.

    3) If the Sender uses a Carrier and a Brokerage firm, kindly ask prior to shipping if there is another way the item can be sent, such as their own National Postal Service.

    4) If one wasn't attached to the parcel, contact the carrier and ask for a copy of the breakdown of charges to be either mailed or emailed to you.

    5) It definitely wouldn't hurt for our UK Members, who are being stung by these ludicrous actions, to contact their Customs and Duty office to verify that the percentage figures used by UPS, or any other government fees for that matter, are correct. This can be done in a "after-the-fact" manner.

    Bottom line: If you don’t ask, you won’t know.

    I'll provide late-breaking updates as they happen.

    Thank you.

    P.S. Not surprisingly, I'm currently thinking of Bob Marley & The Wailers and their words of wisdom.
     
    Mr. LP Collector, Dave and RiRiIII like this.
  2. youknow

    youknow Forum Resident

    Location:
    Brazil
    Great post, very important for us!
    I live in Brazil, and most of the music I acquire needs to be imported from Europe or the US. I had problems with DHL and UPS in the past; sometimes, the amount I had to pay exceeded the price of the product, and in most of the situations I just refused delivery specifically because of that.

    Now, every time I search for sellers on discogs, for example, I ask them which carrier they use. If it's their own national post service, and the tracking number is something along the lines of AA123456789XX, I know the delivery will be free of hustle, or at least the fees charged will be of a fair amount. But I don't accept DHL and UPS anymore.
     
    Mr. LP Collector and Hammer70 like this.
  3. dance_hall_keeper

    dance_hall_keeper Forum Resident Thread Starter

    That’s the spirit!

    I’m finding in my own, short experience that most of the fine Sellers on Discogs are indeed using their own National Postal System, which is great.

    It’s been taking a little longer but always worth the wait.
     
  4. Hammer70

    Hammer70 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Toronto
    Living in Canada, and not limited to music, I refuse to purchase anything that involves UPS or DHL (not just because of the extra costs but because I have absolutely no clue what the fees will even be). At least with certain purchases (like pro sports jerseys from the US), they show me the duties and taxes up front, I can choose to pay them (or not go through the purchase) and then the item just shows up at my door trouble-free. And to think that I used to get miffed when I had to pay a five dollar "service" fee from Canada Post when I'd pick up an item at the post office! :laugh:
     
  5. dance_hall_keeper

    dance_hall_keeper Forum Resident Thread Starter

    The fairest shake you can get is through CBSA because they’re not out to make a profit, they just want to collect what is owed.

    It was explained to me that that paperwork is the same as a T-4 slip and there’s no getting around .
     
  6. Hammer70

    Hammer70 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Toronto
    I've never had an issue with CBSA doing their jobs, and having to pay duties. I learned my lesson on brokerage fees back in the mid-90's when I ordered a receiver from the US. Unwittingly, I paid $29US for ground shipping and around $100 US in "brokerage fees" from UPS. When I called up the retailer, they said that I should have asked for Fed Ex International Air shipping ($50 US and no brokerage fees). After that, Fed Ex International was all I used for my American audio equipment purchases (even at $1.50-$1.60 exchange rates, they simply had equipment that we couldn't get here).
     
  7. dance_hall_keeper

    dance_hall_keeper Forum Resident Thread Starter

    An Update

    On Friday 09 December 2022, I received an envelope from The Receiver General of Canada.
    Inside was a cheque from the CBSA for an amount that was just over one-half of the
    amount that I was hoping to be recompensed for the amount I'd paid UPS.

    A phone call confirmed what I believed to be the reason for the discrepancy: CBSA can
    only refund the Taxes and Duties I paid, which leaves the remaining less-than one-half
    amount that UPS keeps.

    That's right, found money, or so I first thought.

    On Thursday 15 December 2022 I made a phone call to UPS, with my thought process being
    along the lines of..., “I’m expecting the worst here but you never know, ‘cause anything is
    possible".

    I explained the situation to the UPS Rep, gave the amounts involved and then she put me
    on hold for about two minutes.

    She returns to tell me that… they would send me the amount owed by UPS! Then I heard
    the phrase, that if you’ve ever had any dealings with them, numbs your eardrums:

    “It’ll be processed in between three to five business days”.

    In “UPS speak” that could see the expanding of the days to a longer period of days or
    worse yet, to a period of weeks or as in my case, to a period of months!

    Please, if you are buying something outside of your Country, kindly ask the business which
    delivery carrier they use. If they say "UPS" or one of the other independently-owned ones,
    take the time to enlighten them why that isn't the most consumer-friendly method. Ask them
    if something else that doesn't rely on a Brokerage is possible. I'm finding that more businesses
    in both the US are using the USPS and The Royal Mail in the UK, simply because it's better for
    their bottom line.

    To say the least, that's very encouraging to users.
     
    Hammer70 and Peter_R like this.
  8. dance_hall_keeper

    dance_hall_keeper Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Another Update
     
  9. kwadguy

    kwadguy Senior Member

    Location:
    Cambridge, MA
    I had one bad experience shipping via UPS to Canada, and never again.

    They attempted to retrieve duties from the buyer. They failed. They then charged those duties to me as seller. Yes, they can and do that. They only promise to make a "best effort" to collect those duties. If they fail (e.g. the buyer refuses) the seller is on the hook.

    From that point forward, I only ship internationally through USPS or through eBay Internal Shipping. Once it is gone from me, there are no issues regarding duty.
     
  10. Peter_R

    Peter_R Maple Syrple Gort Staff

    Location:
    Montreal, Canada
    It's been a few years now that I always ask who the carrier will be.
    If it's UPS, I ask for an alternative.
    If they can't provide one, I tell them I'm taking my business elsewhere, and I let them know it's specifically because of UPS.
    Case in point: Barnes & Noble. Every year, I would get some Criterion discs during the semi-annual sale.
    Previously, they had shipped via USPS. Suddenly, I'm getting some stuff USPS, and some from United Poor Service. I called, emailed and requested USPS only.
    They said they couldn't guarantee it, and it was at the discretion of the warehouse.
    I told them we were done.
    It's been six years since I have shopped at a B & N.
    Voting with your dollars is your best strategy
     
    Dave likes this.

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