That's funny, many years ago my drum instructor counted out the beats. Keith Moon may play it in Keith Moon time, but the rest of the band seems to be in 6/8. It's certainly not 4/4.
Some very wonderful quotes- never read any of those before. The naysayers of Keith (and he does seem to polerize people) need to read people like Jones and Williams (who are revered in drum circles) praising Keith.
Count it yourself -- it's one-two-three-four all the way through. 6/8 is a triplet feel, and you don't hear that in "Slip Kid."
I could be over-analyzing things with that. But next time you play Quad, think about it. It makes a lot of sense somehow. I don't think it was beyond Keith to empathize with Townshend's narrative.
Agreed, and fwiw, as mentioned elsewhere I think, one of his greatest attributes, imo, is something akin to just that - knowing the song, and singing along to it with the drums. Just watching Pete and Keith playing songs and music together onstage, and the way they complement and feed off each other, is a beautiful thing, .
If that's true, that's a shame. But, it's difficult to think of two more different drummers. What it comes down to is that KM's style fit WHO songs very well. The song is what always comes first, whether one is the drummer for Chick Corea or the Dead Kennedys, and the song has to be supported. KM would not have fit in Fleetwood Mac very well, and I'm sure minimalist Mick would have had his work cut out for him were he to have played on almost any WHO track. I know Keith had big problems with recording WAY, but I don't particularly see how playing more like early Moon would have helped some of these later Townshend songs. The title track is one of my fave Moon performances. It's full of signature Moon fills, well-executed triplets, and a sense of taste that, say, might not have been present with 1967-model Keith. IMO. Dan
Not to mention the way Keith played counter to Daltry's vocal lines. That was key to Moonie's talent - the way he played to the vocals and other instruments.
While I'll recognize that his drumming on the studio albums was less frantic starting with By Numbers, I think one listen to the version of "Sparks" from the TOMMY film (even the shorter version on the soundtrack album) is one hell of an exception to this. Yes, I believe that the hard life might have taken away some of his energy, but a Keith Moon from 1975-1978 could still play rings around most rock drummers from that time in their prime. And maybe many from today too, although today most drummers I hear seem to know how to do a lot of fancy stuff without a whole lot of soul. But I digress.
Wasn't that Kenny Jones on the Tommy film OST version of "Sparks"? Edit: Just checked, that track is credited just to The Who. Jones played on much of the rest of the LP.
Give it a listen and then let me know if you have to ask. Whereas that soundtrack did involve other drummers, that track was totally performed by The Who, and Keith's style is unmistakable. In fact, that was the track that I heard as a kid which made Moon my hero.
I'm not a drummer, but there's some kind of triplet feel to the piano part and general band groove at the opening of the track.
maybe the very first two drum hits but where else? It's definitely in 4, and even by measure two that last hit is on the eighth. And the piano in the middle is playing a 16th note figure that pretty much puts a nail in it, unless you are hearing that as dotted sixteenths in 6/8 which sounds crazy to me. you sure you aren't just thinking of the first two drum hits and that's it? -s
It's definitely in 4/4. You can *kind of* feel the first half of the groove as groups of three 8th notes instead of four because of the accents, but if you count it out it's 4/4.
Like I said, I'm not a drummer, and I'm "playing" the song in my head from memory rather than actually listening to it, but, unless I've lost my mind, Townshend's opening piano groove has a triplet feel to it. As I think someone noted above, Keith may be playing in 4/4, but there is a tension between what Keith is playing and what the rest of the band is playing. It has always struck me that there is something odd going on with the rhythm of "Slip Kid."
The intro and other parts of the song are quite syncopated, so it is a little tricky at first to tell where the "one" of the song is. However, the song does not have a 6/8 feel at all. 6/8 is songs like "Never Tear Us Apart" or "Piano Man" or "Yer Blues" or "We Are the Champions"... totally different kind of feel.
"Slip Kid" is definitely not in 6/8...sounds like 4/4 to me all the way. There is syncopation as Squealy notes, plus there are some polyrhythmic things going on intermittently throughout the track in the hand claps, superimposed over the basic 4/4 - uncommon in traditional rock, though quite common in jazz and some "world music" - which are (understandably) throwing people off. One interesting thing is that the audible count off at the beginning of "Slip Kid" is "1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8." So, did Pete intend it to be considered as being in 8/8 time? Some classical compositions are in 8/8. The most common "reason" to call something 8/8 (rather than 4/4) is if the composer has subdivided the meter in some unusual way (e.g. one-two-three-one-two-one-two-three - with the 8 beats subdivided as 3/2/3). That's not applicable here as "Slip Kid" isn't subdivided that way (if you do assume 8/8, it's definitely grouped in 2 sets of 4). HOWEVER, I do note that the hand claps over the top of the drums in the intro give a 5/8 feel - so perhaps Pete counts out 8/8 (rather than 4/4) for that reason - to account for the superimposed 5/8 polyrhythm. Interesting stuff. Anyway, all this is for me another mark of the greatness of this song - I love it when a song is in regular old 4/4 but the artists dress it up so nicely people think it's in some more exotic time signature (or vice versa - when a song IS in an exotic time signature but the composer and/or musicians make it sound so natural it feels like common time...Pat Metheny is a master of this, among others).
Actually the more I think about this: I suppose based on Keith's snare accent during the verses coming on the 3rd and 7th beats you could group the meter as 3-4-1- one-two-three-one-two-three-four-one (or maybe 3-5: one-two-three-one-two-three-four-five). So that would be another reason to consider it as being in 8/8 rather than straight 4/4. But again the key point is it's a variation of common time, not waltz time. Also I misspoke a bit in my prior note - the hand claps don't really give a 5/8 feel, but they do give a feeling of 5 beats superimposed over 8 (a polyrhythm). Actual time signature notations/distinctions (e.g. 2/4 vs 4/4 vs 8/8 etc) can end up being somewhat subjective, based on how someone "hears" either basic common or waltz time subdivided, so there's not actually a "right" answer to what I'm talking about above, it's just fun to think about. Cool thread - never really gave a moment's thought to any of this before, I have newfound respect for this composition.
A post earlier wrote that Keith's work on "In a Hand or a Face" verges on self parody; I beg to differ. I feel that that the drums echo the torment of the lyrics with a ferocity that is rarely heard even from Keith. It's as if the the total over-the-top aspect of the drum track IS the song, the final statement of self-loathing on an album positively dripping with self-directed venom and vitriol. I understand how some may feel that the song's "Animal" quality (as in the Muppet character purportedly based on Keith -- right down the eyebrows) approaches the self-conscious and parodic. Nevertheless, it works in a big way for me on this song, especially in the cymbals at the end, which seem like a soul going round and round until it falls completely don the drain (another example, in my opinion, of Keith's keen sense of musical empathy). I've always been such a fan of Keith's, and the many fantastic comments here have made me appreciate his work even more. Thanks!
In regards to "In A Hand Or A Face", in an interview in 1989 they asked John if the tom fill he matched (at around the 2 minute mark) was planned or overdubbed. He said neither, it was totally spontaneous. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CoAmj2_MUTs
I can't believe he remembers a detail like that. Reminds me of when I was at a convention where the original Alice Cooper band was appearing. A guy in the audience asks Neil Smith, "There's a part at about 2 minutes and 30 seconds in <insert song title here> where it sounds like you hit a rim. Did you do that on purpose or was it a mistake?" Neil's response was fairly appropriate: "Man, that was over 20 years ago and I was so high that I couldn't tell you what I played. So yeah, it probably was a mistake."
