The mysterious appeal of outtakes

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by DK Pete, Sep 23, 2022.

  1. Uncle Ernie

    Uncle Ernie Forum Resident

    The creative process is often interesting -- and sometimes revelatory. This Van Morrison outtake of The Way Young Lovers Do is both. Finished version is great, but sticks out arrangement / production-wise on Astral Weeks. This spare demo, on the other hand, sounds more at home with the other AW tunes. Makes me appreciate the album and song even more.

    Plus, I love the intro. The man was born a curmudgeon.

     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2022
  2. Onkster515

    Onkster515 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
    i was walking down the street one day
    Who did I meet?
    I met a bootlegger with a big bag of CDs full of outtakes and he did say
    Man I can smell your cash a mile away

    File away! File away! File away! Yeah, file away!
     
  3. supermd

    supermd Senior Member

    Location:
    San Jose, CA
    The question was, “Why can’t we get enough alternates and working versions?” My answer holds true whether outtakes or live versions - another version of a beloved song.
     
    DK Pete likes this.
  4. DK Pete

    DK Pete Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Levittown. NY
    I couldn’t agree more…definitely top three.
     
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  5. DK Pete

    DK Pete Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Levittown. NY
    I’m not even a fan of Morrison…but this outtake is very cool, indeed.
     
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  6. SJB

    SJB Beloved Parasitic Nuisance

    An analogy...I recently watched the Light & Magic documentary on Disney+, showing how they did the special effects for movies from Star Wars to Jurassic Park. The scene where the Millennium Falcon jumps to light speed and disappears into a tiny dot in the middle of the screen? When they shot the scene with a model, they couldn't move the camera far enough to make the Falcon disappear. So they taped a Polaroid photo of the model to a pane of glass and shot that.

    I find many outtakes to be of abiding interest, particularly if I already really like the song. These days, when I listen to Pepper or the White Album, I tend to reach for the Super Deluxe sets. I don't listen to hours and hours all in one go, but I enjoy the peek under the hood.

    Those who work in the music or recording industries might view outtakes as messy behind-the-scenes trimmings that they prefer to keep hidden so that the finished work stands on its own merit. The wires and pipes in your home are all hidden inside the wall; it's what they do that counts, rather than watching "the process" in real time. For people in the business who live with that stuff day in and day out, there may not really be a sense of "wonder." They're too close to it.

    But some of us who aren't in the business like seeing just enough of the process to be fascinated by it. (And some people who are in the business are proud of how they achieved things and will happily walk through an explanation. Sort of like Penn and Teller revealing the occasional magic trick. Seeing George Martin sitting at a mixing desk, dissecting Pepper, you can tell he's enjoying it and proud of what he'd done, rather than slumping through an obligatory lecture because he's under contract.)

    EDIT: I'll add that people in the business tend to be fascinated by other aspects that are less engaging to laypersons. I've seen discussions here on the forum about what kinds of microphones and limiters were used on a given recording . . . my eyes glaze over at that kind of stuff. It just doesn't mean anything to me. Others will, of course, feel very differently. "Oh, they used a FAIRCHILD? Well, no wonder...." So perhaps people have different itches they need to scratch when it comes to such stuff. I'll sit out the animated discussions about Marshall amps, and turn my attention the take that broke down because Ringo went to the bridge too early. Plenty of room for everyone, and one person's tedium is another's treasure.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2022
  7. I'm up for unreleased songs but multiple versions of the same released song I'm not.

    But then it depends on the artist. Queen, Springsteen, Prince, Neil Young, The Black Crowes, Pearl Jam, Manic Street Preachers, for instance, I'll take them.
    There's many decent songs they've all done that didn't make the LP.
     
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  8. blackdograilroad

    blackdograilroad Forum Resident

    Location:
    Devon, UK
    If you’re interested in outtakes then you’re invariably a serious/dedicated/whatever supporter of the artist.
    It’s
    The chance to hear something else by the artist
    (you’ve probably got everything or almost everything released)
    The chance to hear a different version/take/mix
    The chance that there’s a lost diamond somewhere in there
    The evolution of a track from demo to finished

    …….outtakes are usually outtakes because……they’re…..umm……not very good…….or at least inferior to the released version….I can think only of The Times They Are A-Changing (Byrds) and It’s Only Love (Beatles) where I actually thought the outtake was better and should have been released in place of the selected version (sure, there are probably quite a few more, but my point stands- they’re very much the exception)
     
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  9. Siegmund

    Siegmund Vinyl Sceptic

    Location:
    Britain, Europe

    Yes, some certainly do repay repeated attention. I must believe this, since I own The Cutting Edge and have listened to the whole thing more than once.
     
  10. A-Tone

    A-Tone camera shy

    Location:
    Scotland
    As far as the recent past, I wanted every recorded minute of the artists I admired, good and bad. After my collecting habits changed and small changes in taste, it became less important.
    I'll still buy collections with outtakes from time to time though. I know the majority of it will be s***, but you can't help but take a listen.
     
  11. Ryan Lux

    Ryan Lux Senior Member

    Location:
    Toronto, ON, CA
    It’s rare that an outtake is worth listening to repeatedly but there have been some true gems. The Beach Boys stuff is so fascinating (and often really good) that it would’ve been a terrible loss if they didn’t see fit to release those tracks. Also, getting to hear Wilson work with the musicians was like getting a degree for me. I’ve learned so much from those tapes.

    To answer your question though, I think the psychological attraction of outtakes is pretty hard to pass up. Your favourite artists, in their prime, creating something you’ve never heard. Streaming has saved me a lot of money over the years. With the price of these deluxe boxes…. Most of the time, it’s not something I need to own after hearing them once.
     
  12. Jeff Kent

    Jeff Kent Forum Resident

    Location:
    Mt. Kisco, NY
    I had the pleasure of speaking to Herbie Hancock backstage at a show in the mid 90s and this subject came up. He said, 'those tracks were unreleased for a reason.'
     
  13. rcsrich

    rcsrich Forum Resident

    Location:
    Virginia
    I’m lukewarm on outtakes…sometimes they’re interesting when there are moments of genius that never made it into the final cut, but false starts, sonic experiments and studio banter just don’t do a lot for me. Maybe interesting to hear once.
     
  14. pozdnyshev

    pozdnyshev Well-Known Member

    Location:
    US
    for me, it’s about the tape hissss
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2022
  15. Jeff Kent

    Jeff Kent Forum Resident

    Location:
    Mt. Kisco, NY
    For the serious fan, something like Zappa's Hot Rats Sessions are interesting because Frank is directing musicians who are ad-libbing on written parts and he's changing the composition on the fly. Since you know how the finished piece sounds, you can hear the moment when they nail the idea that Frank likes best. He'll give instructions like, 'that drum fill was great keep that going' or 'lose the lead in, but expand on the vamp.' Frank 'composed' like Ellington by getting the best out of his musicians and editing their improvs into a finished piece.

    Some of the other tracks on that box are uninterrupted extended jams where you can hear all the ideas percolating.
     
  16. misteranderson

    misteranderson Forum Resident

    Location:
    englewood, nj
    Oh yeah! One of the finest sessions collections ever. I’m still digging into parts of it.

    FZ is one of the relative handful of my favorite artists who recorded everything, kept it organized, and saw the value in releasing it. I wish they were all that way.
     
  17. Marty T

    Marty T Stereo Fan

    Location:
    NM - North of ABQ
    Yes, and add to Siegmund's comments the historic value. I mean "Can't But Me Love" is a major classic and to find out it at one point had a goofy answer-vocal background?! Woah! That was a major revelation and with the fly on the wall studio sound quality - that was insane. Definitely give me more of that from them and other greats.

    It may also help interest in outtakes if you were ever in a garage band yourself - it tickles your imagination to hear even The Beatles and other great artists playing at that level in the process of polishing.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2022
  18. vinylontubes

    vinylontubes Forum Resident

    Location:
    Katy, TX
    For me, it's hearing the differences from the more well known release. Really no different than hearing a live recording of a studio release. Sometime they better them. Mostly they don't. Others are just as good with a different feel. In some cases it might be an unreleased song. That being said, I buy these and almost never listen to them beyond gaining the familiarity of them when I first purchase them.
     
  19. misteranderson

    misteranderson Forum Resident

    Location:
    englewood, nj
    What was he referring to, specifically?
     
  20. Jeff Kent

    Jeff Kent Forum Resident

    Location:
    Mt. Kisco, NY
    I think it was some of the 'disco' experiments of the 70s.
     
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  21. Slackhurst Broadcasting

    Slackhurst Broadcasting Forum Resident

    Location:
    Liverpool
    Zappa didn't draw the usual distinction between finished tracks and outtakes. Material recorded during the sessions for one album might be edited into another later on, maybe combined or overlaid to make a whole new composition.
     
  22. Exile On My Street

    Exile On My Street Senior Member

    Location:
    Long Island, NY
    Artists are the harshest critics of their work and they hear all of the flaws in an outtake or demo that we fans think are 'cool' in the development of the song. They're too close to their own art, they remember how painstaking it was to get each song worked to perfection.

    To view this from another perspective, while I was drooling over a certain expensive box set that contained tons of demos and alternate takes, a female friend said to me, "Why would I want to hear all of the songs before they fixed them?"

    Man, I tell you, that was a moment of clarity for me.
     
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  23. misteranderson

    misteranderson Forum Resident

    Location:
    englewood, nj
    The Blood On The Tracks test pressing blew me away, but then I’m not a Dylan obsessive with stacks of Bob bootlegs. I had no expectations, other than a quote from Joni Mitchell stating how much she preferred it over the proper album.

    That’s probably the most extreme example for me, because it ended up causing me to get into Dylan, an artist I respected, but never really invested in.
     
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  24. lucan_g

    lucan_g Forum Resident

    Sometimes producers/artists get it 'wrong'. Over-production has ruined a number of songs for me. Then I hear an outtake or stripped down version and I'm like -- damn, why did that get buried?

    I have the same opinion about some women with make-up etc.

    I guess I like things unvarnished.
     
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  25. DK Pete

    DK Pete Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Levittown. NY
    Hey Exile..I can definitely appreciate your friend’s perspective even though I just can’t agree with it. For me, that “journey” of fixing them (very cool way to put it) is what makes them the most appealing.
     
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