The ol' NAS-Project Conundrum: shoulda asked that sooner...

So, having committed myself to a NAS, I’ve naturally come up with far too many questions, that I’m probably getting ahead of myself purely by daring to ask.

Of course, every project I’ve ever started, comes with questions I don't think anybody's ever asked ( )...most of which bring disheartening answers such as, “Why are you over-thinking it this way? Just...”; “No, you can’t do it that way; first you have to mortgage your child...”; “That doesn’t matter, just start ripping, and eventually somebody will tell you why you should have asked that first, so you’ll have to start over...”; “Just get a Mac/Just get a turntable and a thousand-dollar cleaning machine/Just get a more expensive replacment for all the things you already bought specifically for your project/Just get an iPod/Spotify/a DAC with a brand name you don’t recognize, and no I have no idea why you need one in the first place, but everybody’s getting them these days...”

It's kinda like throwing your hands in the air, and just paying the Oppo MSRP: no matter how economical you want to be, nobody is able to help you, until you take their suggestion for the most expensive option for every task, “because it’s the easiest”; “because Roon only works wonderfully if you have diamond-encrusted RAM chips”; “because Linux is the only obvious solution...once you learn how to use it‘; “because once you start filling it up with FLACs, wherever are you going to fit your SACD rips, your Mp3’s, your WAV’s, your DVD backups, your family photos, your videogames, your Blu-Ray Criterions, your complete PBS run of Every British MiniSeries About Every Damned Queen, Prince, Duke and Butler From The 17th Century Onward...?”

Well, let’s just assume all my questions are wrong, and accidentally some answers will help me out regardless?

1) I always figured HDD’s for storage and SDD for the OS and other relevant programs should be the norm. But, assuming I’m looking to start my NAS with 2 HDD’s then expanding to 4...do I have to get a 6-bay box just to fit one SDD in there...or does anybody make odd-numbered bay NAS’ for just that purpose?

2) Do NAS makers make them with different configurations of ports (in my case, I’ve already wired the house for ethernet, so want nothing to do with wifi or bluetooth); is there HDMI out to TV, and, I’m guessing, USB 3.0 for a DAC?

3) Assuming I want WAV for backup, FLAC for home audio and Mp3 for devices, do they have to go all to the same HDD, ripping from dbPoweramp? Who’s got a unique storage config I should consider?

4) Before I get the NAS started, couldn’t I start ripping onto some drives parked next to my desktop in a multi-disc enclosure?

5) PLEASE tell me now, what I’ll be wishing later-on I’d asked, before I got this far into it?

 

A DAC only converts the data, it doesn't play the files. You need a computer, servers or something that accesses the file you want to play.

The quantity of HDD you will need will depend on two things, which RAID array you select and how large your file ares. MP3, probably a single one is small one is sufficient. FLAC, you'll probably need a larger one. DSD or any other High Resolution files or video, you'll probably want multiple HDDs. The RAID array will allow you redundancy in case of an HDD failure or striping for increased performance. Read up on this. You should have redundancy. There are redundancy configurations where odd numbers are allowed.

Make sure you get a HDD make for a NAS. A NAS will spin your hard drive plates a lot. You need one that is designed for constant spinning.

Where you store your files is up to you. This will depend on a lot of things. Mostly it depends on how your server/software accesses files. Most software will require you point to a location. If you don't want to play MP3 and only have them for uploading to portable devices, don't point your software at those file. Use a scheme that makes sense to you within the constraints of your server. Don't ask for advise on this. Do what makes sense to you.

Some NASs have USB to moves files in and out of the DAC. They don't have HDMI. If you want to connect to a TV you need a separate device like a Roku, Chrome cast or a configured Raspberry Pi/PC to the video files. There are probably some TVs that have this capability, in which case, it would also have an Ethernet port. Mostly Ethernet is used, although WiFi is possible, but not recommended for video.

You should rip the files as soon as possible. Ripping a library is time consuming. If you are into video, I would prioritize this lower as it will take take up more space than audio only files. I would get a portable USB, when you are done keep the portable as a backup and put it in a fireproof safe or off-site.

 

NAS means Network Attached-Storage. It is essentially a computer or computer-like appliance that shares files over the network.

For PC access, this will be file sharing over a Windows share (called SMB or CIFS). However for streaming to smart TVs and "dumb" network receivers, the protocol it will also use and needs to support is DLNA.

You can both share files with a normal PC and install DLNA server software on a PC, and see that this is satisfactory before getting a standalone appliance or dedicated server.

 

1) you don’t need a ssd of OS for the NAS. I use a 2 drive Synology NAS with a Mac mini running Audirvana+. It works fine.
2) no comment.
3) put them on the same drive. They are just files. That being said, I have files that are high-def, CD, and songs purchased from iTunes. I use a spreadsheet-like metadata editor to attach a -HD, -CD, and -iTunes suffix on album artist so I can easily tell the difference in the music server software. I can copy and paste cell values, even album art. You can even copy the album artist column to excel and add the suffix there which is highly convenient. I use a Mac but I’m sure there is a similar app for windows. Tag Editor for MAC OS X - Amvidia
4) yes. They are just files on a hard drive. Keep up with the metadata and use a file storage scheme that makes sense to you. I use resolution>artist>album. HD is in one folder. CD files in another.

There are what would seem to be a bewildering number of options. Check out computeraudiophile.com to immerse yourself inn a geek fest.

 

Unlike a single external drive, a NAS is a long term investment. I would get one that has some horsepower and will outlast several PC's. The QNAP TS series is a great balance of power and cost. If you are going to run the Roon Core on the NAS righton then you want one with some processor horsepower. I would not worry about where to put the system as the NAS will manage that. The higher end QNAPs have dedicated slots for SSD and some even have internal M.2 slots for SSD cache. I've had great success with the WD red drives (I've got about a dozen or more of them). Put the FLAC files in one directory, WAV (I still never understand the affection many have for WAV files) in another and the MP3 in a third. Just point the Roon Core to there FLAC directory. No reason to have it track three copies.

An very important point is that, if you are not familiar with File servers, you might want to get some help in getting it set up. It is not difficult, but The choices you make as to storage pools, snapshot reservations, and other technogeek stuff up front make a huge difference and are not fun to change later. Better to get it right the first time.

This is one that I would look at as a start:
QNAP TS-563 5-Bay Business NAS Enclosure TS-563-2G-US B&H Photo

 

I think you might be misunderstanding the function of a NAS. As pointed out, it is Network Attached Storage.
Think of it as a bank of storage attached to a network that is accessible by multiple computers on the network. Similar to a printer that can print from multiple PCs on the network, except instead of printing, it stores data that the multiple PCs can access.

Some NAS boxes have been expanded to run basic software, but they really aren't computers and are limited to network and USB connections. Generally you will need some other device to pull and push data to the NAS then play that data to another device, DAC or TV, aka media software. The device that runs the media software plays the music or movie that was stored on a NAS and pushes it to a TV or DAC is usually some sort of computer, a NUC, PC, laptop, or something simpler that is small computer designed to be a media controller like a Raspberry.

Personally, I like to use an actual computer, NUC, with HDMI outputs, USB ports, and network connections. Connect a wireless keyboard with a touch pad and connect it to the TV via HDMI. Using a NUC you can run anything a computer runs, browsers, Excel, Word, media programs, youtube, whatever, and view them on the TV while playing music stored on the NAS.

My wife has a blackmail picture of me in pajamas with a cup of coffee and a keyboard in the recliner while working from home while playing music on the main system, using such a setup.

 

That's mostly accurate, but a lot of the better NAS units today are pretty much full-on PC's and can output via USB and even video. My big QNAP is an i7 with 16 GB and does things like transcoding on the fly. Where it gets really weird is that it has HDMI output, but it can't be used to just act like a monitor, but is there to output video for things other than the OS. All configuration is done on a web page. One really cool thing is that the NAS can run virtual machines so it can also host one or more PC's, so you can remote in to a PC running all you audio stuff just as you would a dedicated PC.

Of course, this doesn't come on the cheap, and is way overkill for most folks.

 

Interesting. I haven't looked at upgrading in a couple years.
Can you remote into it from something external of the network? Or would it run JRiver which lets me remote in from my phone or a PC from another location for music and pictures.

 

As a new to digital audio user, I have a few follow-on questions (that hopefully aren't a hi-jack):
Why a NAS over an external hard drive?
More robust? More storage space? Configured to create back-ups automatically as part of the array?
Sonics?
Why would it sound better than a single (or multiple) external hard drive?
Are the drives potentially better than what is offered in a simple external hard drive?
(Note that in my reading, the Mojo Audio guy says that solid state drives don't sound as good, but there is a variant of solid state drive designed for A/V that has the benefits of solid state drive).
Is part of it how the drive is connected to the system? A friend with a Bricasti DAC said the change to an ethernet connection (from usb) was a dramatic sonic improvement.

I've started 'small' and am using a new Mac Mini to run Audirvana, and a 4T Lacie hard drive that, once configured, loaded 2T of files very quickly. I don't have ethernet upstairs yet, but that would be the logical next step, and any big NAS would likely be installed in an adjacent room to minimize noise and electrical interference. But, the sonics of the simple external hard drive aren't bad at all; using a Schitt Eitr to convert and isolate the usb output to coax into my NOS DAC.
Again, hope this isn't a diversion. It's been a big learning curve for me, and I've been around the block many times in analog-land.
regards, etc.

 

In a perfect world your rip is perfect including the meta data.
Practice is different. Often you need to correct your tags.
If you have these files in 1 library, you can correct the tags at the same time by selecting all 3 formats.
The consequence, your media player will see 3 versions of the same track.
Hence you have to organize these file in such a way that they are in 3 different libraries.
The consequence: you have to open 3 different libraries manually to keep these tags in sync.
Horrible job.

FLAC and WAV are both lossless formats. The difference is that FLAC has excellent meta data support and WAV meta data is a mess. The Well-Tempered Computer
For backup purposes it doesn’t make any difference if you use lossless format A of B.
My advice, settle for FLAC only.

MP3 for devices.
There is a thing called transcoding. You make a playlist (your library probably doesn’t fit on a portable). The media player synchronizes to the portable using your format of choice e.g. MP3 or even better AAC. No need to keep a second library in a lossy format

 

The entire box can be accessed via it's web page, You can do all that on your router, but QNAP has a free service that allows you to access everything through their service over the cloud. I don't use JRiver much, but QNAP has a guide to using it so it must be a thing.

https://download.qnap.com/QPKG/GUIDE/Jriver_ENG.pdf

Of course you can also have the NAS run a VM PC to do whatever a PC can do. It has a virtual switch that just puts the VM on your network as a PC. It also has dropbox like file sharing that works really well. Basically I am like a QNAP commercial, because I love mine.

More robust, Yes. Drives better, depends on what drives you install, I like the WD reds, but they should be dedicated NAS drives.

As to sound quality, I won't get into that as no one will ever convince me that one SSD or hard drive "sounds" any different from another. As to Ethernet vs USB, that will really depend on the device. Many pieces of audio gear still use USB2 and that could be a bottleneck. Basically USB, and Ethernet are delivery systems and they either deliver the right data - at the right time - or they don't.

Probably the biggest advantage of a NAS is that it lives in the closet and is more of an appliance than a PC. You don't need to muss around with it much once it's running.

One thing to be aware of is that iTunes will work with a shared NAS drive, it really does better with local storage. I keep my Roon library on my NAS, but iTunes gets few from my Pegasus which is a huge external raid. I sync them once a week or so they act as a backup as well for each other.

There really is no right or wrong here.

 

Thanks. I guess one question growing out of your response is whether one can load the playback and management software into a NAS to eliminate a computer altogether (though in that respect, I guess the brain of the NAS is really a computer in this context). All pretty fascinating to me as I get more involved in this.

 

Thank you, gentlemen! Actually brings up more questions, but I'm not smart enough to formulate them.
Where I stand for now, I have ethernet starting in the office out of my FiOS router; down the hall to the upstairs teevee/TiVo; downstairs where the bigger setup is, teevee, TiVo, Oppo ("Uma...Oprah..."); office has two PC workstations; the second one contains my old radio station music library and scheduling software.

Reason it appears I don't know what exactly the NAS is for, is because I don't know what I'll be pushing out of it, and I would assume it needs an OS. One of the cool things I can do, is fire-up my old radio station music-scheduling software, which only works to its fullest when its' library and its' music player, reside in the same folder as the scheduling program; the player will automatically begin to play if it sees an edited log for the current date, in the folder; and! - and here's the cool part - if the player sees no log, it will automatically write one on the fly, using all my parameters and segues, and off it goes! So if I can get a facsimile of my old radio station to play off my Oppo in the house without royalties, there's a major win. And the most sophisticated "smart shuffle" algorithm on the planet!

But first, I've got to interpret all the great help you're giving me so far...!

 

Take a look at Unraid (unraid.net). It's a type of NAS system that is very well suited to media libraries. It uses a USB flash drive for the OS. It is very flexible and expandable.

It has the advantage of RAID in that you have data protection (with parity) in case a drive fails. However, unlike RAID, each group of files are all contained on a specific disk rather than spread across multiple discs. In case of a catastrophic failure, your media files will still be accessible on the individual disk on which they reside. Also, this means that only the disk on which your selected media file resides needs to be spun up. This keeps all of your drives from needing to spin up when you play one song.

Disadvantage vs. RAID is that data rate for read is not as fast (because you're reading sequentially from one disk rather than in parallel from several disks). For media playback, this is irrelevant. A single disk drive can simultaneously feed multiple streams of 4K video with no problem.

If you do want to use the server for more than just NAS, Unraid supports docker applications to serve as an application server. For example, your Unraid server can also serve as a Plex media server.

I've been running Unraid for >10 yrs and have been very satisfied (and never lost a single bit of data).

 

"Thanks. I guess one question growing out of your response is whether one can load the playback and management software into a NAS to eliminate a computer altogether (though in that respect, I guess the brain of the NAS is really a computer in this context). All pretty fascinating to me as I get more involved in this."

This depends on what software is available for the NAS brand. Often called Packages, another name for the NAS specific application. Most offer some sort of Media Center software, but using the NAS as the player is not the most ideal. A better solution is to reserve the NAS as the storage site for the data (files, any files by the way; music, photos, movies, videos, backups of documents or whatever) and use a device like a Bluesound Node2, Network enabled player like Oppo's or Streaming device. My system uses an NAS that streams tirelessly to a Bluesound Node2 then to an external DAC into my playback system. The external DAC is optional as I wanted an upgrade to the excellent (at the price point) one in the Node. The management is via a phone or tablet. And yes eliminating the computer is most desirable.

 

Dillydipper,
It sounds to me that what you want is really a media server or a HTPC. And I would recommend going the DIY route with an intel based motherboard using a LGA 1151 chipset with 6 SATA ports that are easily configured as RAID.

 

Now that's an angle I hadn't anticipated (probably because I don't know the difference between a "media server" and a content-based server).

One of my main intents for this "whatever-it-is", is going to be primarily for holding music...and mainly to have my Oppo look in there, go get it, and play it. But also, with the Oppo 103D, and the 203, there is gapless playback; I'm thinking of attempting an end-run around that.

I want my own stream playing, not only gaplessly, but segue'ing as well, off the proprietary M-Player application that's part of the radio-made music scheduler system. It's cool because it pays attention to 3 sound files at once, triggering them as needed, according to the scheduler's database (different from the music file tag info, but a database you custom-populate. A primary difference is you can/should tell it a song is a few seconds shorter than it really is; so, as the song begins to fade in real-time, the player "thinks" it's already over, and triggers the next song during the fade, just as a regular radio automation system would...and there's your overlapping segue!). The only challenge is, for this to work, the database info, the music-log generator/editor, and the music files themselves must reside in the same folder, so the player can play the stream from that computer. And that environment would be the NAS-or-whatever-franken-hybrid-stein-it's-going-to-be-called.

So when I want it to play, it's gotta run off the NAS-"thing", and right into the Oppo, which would see it like it would any other streaming input be it Netflix, a YouTube stack of vids, or Tidal. But, that's only one of the hats it wears; its' "day-job" would be a musical automat: you reach in and grab a song. So, if that task is going to be performed by some Roonish gargantuan librarian application, it's still gotta keep out of the way of my wittle fake radio station.

 

Remember though, the house is already on an ethernet, so if necessary I can boot up the 2nd computer, which was my internet station source a few years ago when I sent the "signal" directly to Live365. That is essentially a "jukebox-in-a-box" all by itself...if here was anything else in the house that could find the stream on the ethernet. And in addition to the folder housing the system, the player, the database and the music-and-voice-track vault are already in there, ready to boot, wipe the cobwebs off, and update the software. It also has the audio-processing chain, already optimally-config'ed for the online sound of my stream, loaded and waiting for orders, sir.

So, worst-case scenario, I wouldn't have to run it from the NAS-thingy if I can get it to play through the house so any device listening to the NAS, can instead choose the in-house stream.

Still have the issue of wanting to play the NAS output into an Oppo media player, that would have a gapless-disabled problem with some of my files.

Soooo, if I can't stick a finger in the air like William Daniels in The President's Analyst and bark, "...Hear that...? Total Sound...!"...alas alack, it is all for naught.

 

Nearly any NAS will have a DLNA server package that will serve the OPPO just fine. As to gapless, I don’t remember, but I will fire up my 203 and see...and report back.

 

Especially interested in multichannel files, be they from any medium, converted to whatever one might use if he were to play them from a stick...?

 

I seem to have had an HDMI cable go afoul, I’ll have to snatch one through the wall to the TV before I can get the OPPO going. That’s how long it’s been since I used it!

 

I like many run LMS, Logitech Media Server on a budget Synology NAS. As the NAS is only used for music, it doesn't need to be powerful, the Logitech app is supported by Synology.

As has been said, it can be accessed as a web page, the only other time a computer, in my case a laptop is used, is for ripping CDs. The budget Android tablet I'm tapping this out on, is also the control point for the player, a second hand Logitech Squeezebox Touch, and can access and rescan the files too.

One of my NAS drives has not been seen for a couple of years, but can be checked via another Synology app from my phone or tablet.

 

Some points that I don't think have been covered by others:

1. It may be obvious, but just in case: To make good use of a NAS, you need wired Ethernet at home and a place (with power and Ethernet) to put the NAS where you won't hear its disks and fans when you're listening to music. NASes are getting quieter, but they are not silent.
2. You'll be buying disks separately to put into the NAS, and they should be rated by the manufacturer for RAID use. (There are special versions.) Some that are often recommended are the Western Digital Red drives and the HGST drives specified for RAID use. Since the NAS is optimized for file transfer, you won't need the fastest possible disks. 5400 RPM seems to work just fine.
   
3. You could just as well use FLAC for backup as WAV, and save a lot of space, while preserving metadata. FLAC, being lossless, can be converted to WAV at any time.
4. Even if you use RAID, most people would advise you to use a separate drive to make true backups. RAID protects against total failure of one of the disks in the array. It does not protect against user error.
5. A two-bay NAS is probably just fine; I prefer the 4-bay, as they allow for more expansion and also can use space more efficiently with various advanced RAID methods.

HTH

 

Too busy, huh? I bet you monsters lead interesting lives....

 

You are still mis-describing network-attached storage. It is not a radio station or a player, it is file storage.

Let's say I have a NAS for music files. That's simply where the files are stored. They sit there, ready for another network device to access them. They don't play themselves. I don't interact with the NAS to make music play.

If I want to access the NAS on my PC, I can map a network drive letter to one of the NAS shares, and it will look like all the files are on a local hard drive. I can then browse and load up those tracks into my "radio station" software playlist and play them. Or just play music with WinAmp. I copy new files there when my password allows it.

Or in my living room, when I open my Kodi-based media center PC, I can browse and play the network movies from the "movies" file share, or add music to the queue of the music player within Kodi. One Kodi feature is gapless playback, if I queue an entire album's files in order.

Most "smart" player devices you own, however, are oriented to you purchasing optical discs and inserting them, or using apps from select premium providers to play subscription media or radio stations. They don't generally let you play via your own network file shares.

However some devices let you "stream" from your NAS and local network using a protocol called DLNA. This is often required because these little "smart" devices don't offer support of many audio or video formats, but the DLNA server (your NAS on good PC hardware) can re-encode media files on-the-fly. DLNA players in TVs or Blu-Ray players often have a poor interface, or only work with particular servers because the player is poorly written. In DLNA, you still browse a list of artists or titles, and if you are lucky, can add multiple files to a playlist.

Otherwise, these smart devices are a "walled garden", they won't do whatever you want or run your software. You can't put your own radio station app on a Sony Blu-Ray player. One way to get around this on some devices like Roku or Sonos is with Plex, which is an app (and company) you pay a subscription to gain access to your own media via "the cloud", and your NAS server or PC must be running the proprietary Plex server - to let your files out over the internet for a third-party "cloud" provider to inspect.

If you have an extra old PC that will take big hard drives, and are not a computer noob, jam those blank drives in that old computer, and install XigmaNas (completely free) onto a bootable 8GB USB stick. The entire OS can load from USB flash, and then you can format and use your drive(s) as NAS storage, with incredibly more advanced options than overpriced consumer appliances.