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The Rush cd mastering thread (part 2)

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by -Alan, Jul 5, 2012.

  1. Dave

    Dave Esoteric Audio Research Specialist™

    Location:
    B.C.
    Does it somehow sound different now? :confused:
     
    Holy Diver likes this.
  2. ricks

    ricks Custom Title:

    Location:
    Nowhere Fast
    Hi,

    Fly By Night - Still haven't heard a digital version that sounds good. Have had better luck with vinyl rips but perhaps there really isn't that much to be gained given the recording.

    The main reason for this post is Signals I prefer from several masterings. My digital ranking s are for the album as whole entity:

    1) The Japan Anthem AMCY (used for the SHM-CD) - My preferred Digital "Subdivisions", "New World Man", "Chemistry", and "Countdown".

    2) Canadian ANC Anthem - Probably my preferred source for "Losing It", "Digital Man" but its very close with the SHM-CD

    3) MFSL is excellent, however it has different mixes and lengths for several tracks, most egregious are the missing vocals on "The Weapon" (The track that got me "into" the band) . If not for those issues I'd probably rank it as a tie for #1 although Subdivisions on the SHM-CD is more to my liking.

    Below are tied:

    4a) 25 8P - bright at times. Was my preferred source for "Subdivisions" before I heard the Canadian Anthem and the SHM-CD.

    4b) Original Mercury based mastering - Murky compared to all the above. "Subdivisions" and "Countdown" both have some low end bloat. My preferred source for "The Weapon" by a slim margin over 1 and 2 in this list. I prefer the SHM-CD for "Analog Kid", but there is also something about the EQ on this one that is very comforting. Still this comes in last place overall and at time it sounds as if sourced from higher gen tapes (fuzziness, reduced transients) than the above masterings.

    I've not listed the 2015 Hi-Res as I have noticed the watermarking. Not really sure how to classify it as the mastering is very nice but the product is marred.


    Speaking of the Canadian ANC Anthem's about 2 years ago happened into shop and my buddy there said they had just got in a collection from Canadian collector. Grabbed the ANC's Caress, FBN, Grace - already had the rest. Also a mint WG Atomic 01 of the 1st album that had eluded me for years. In a single swoop I completed both my ANC and WG Atomic collections. Not bad for about $20 total and never expected in my area. In fact they were the first CA for CA discs I'd ever seen in the wild.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2020
    Rockstar2112 and Diablo Griffin like this.
  3. btomarra

    btomarra Classic Rock Audiophile

    Location:
    Little Rock, AR
    My understanding is that other than the missing line of The Weapon, that song and New World Man had different lengths on the MFSL. What other songs have different mixes and lengths as you said “several”? This is my go to until I acquire the Anthem.
     
  4. ricks

    ricks Custom Title:

    Location:
    Nowhere Fast
    You also get a bit o' extree length on Analog Kid as well. Better extra than missing I guess. The MFSL is nice but just not authentic on nearly 50% of the album.
     
  5. btomarra

    btomarra Classic Rock Audiophile

    Location:
    Little Rock, AR
    Thank you. One could say with the shorter fades the WG Atomic isn’t authentic either. Anthem for me on this and GUP. I have the WG Atomic and 35.8P for GUP
     
    Diablo Griffin likes this.
  6. ricks

    ricks Custom Title:

    Location:
    Nowhere Fast
    I also have a nice Signals RL vinyl-rip (courtesy PBTHAL) - all tracks are proper length on that :)
     
    boboquisp likes this.
  7. Diablo Griffin

    Diablo Griffin City Pop, Rock, and anything 80s til I die

    Location:
    United States
    It's been a while since I've heard many of these Signals CDs, but I do have to agree with you about the low-end bloat on the WG Atomic. My favorites right now are the AMCY, MFSL, and BK vinyl. At some point, I'm going to sit down and compare the CDs again.
     
    Ben C. and btomarra like this.
  8. btomarra

    btomarra Classic Rock Audiophile

    Location:
    Little Rock, AR
    Anthem and AMCY or SHM-cd are scarce or expensive. My only three CDs are the WG Atomic and 25.8p for the proper The Weapon and/or proper song lengths (25.8p). But the 25.8ps eq actually is less detailed than the Atomic after dozens of side by side comparisons. The MFSL has the best eq for me. But has The Weapon before the final vocal overdub (one line) was applied.
     
    Diablo Griffin likes this.
  9. btomarra

    btomarra Classic Rock Audiophile

    Location:
    Little Rock, AR
    Late to respond. Just had a mint copy of the ANC-2-1005 of All The World’s A Stage arrive and it blew my WG Atomic out of the water. :righton:
     
    Dave likes this.
  10. Ben C.

    Ben C. Forum Resident

    Location:
    New England
    Weird, because they're supposed to be the same mastering. I have the WG Atomic and U.S. Mercury, and they sound identical, and the wavforms are all matchy-matchy. The ANC is supposed to be the same as those, at least according to the peaks chart. What differences did you hear?
     
    ricks and Diablo Griffin like this.
  11. btomarra

    btomarra Classic Rock Audiophile

    Location:
    Little Rock, AR
    Cds may have the same peak values but it doesn’t guaranty they have to sound the same. Wish You Were Here 2nd pressing has peak values that match a number of US pressings and a number of forum members say they are different masterings.

    For Rush, differences are subtle but noticeable. Another respected forum member agrees with that. The WG Atomic sounds slightly less detailed in comparison.
     
  12. ricks

    ricks Custom Title:

    Location:
    Nowhere Fast
    :sigh man....Great way to get a thread closed. There was an agreement between myself and Dave a few years back not to discuss CD "pressings" in this thread. To best of my knowledge, we have both honored that . I advise all to follow suit as this is too interesting and valuable a thread to be locked or removed.

    @Dave please remind the folks of our agreement for this thread . Thanks!

    Our agreement may actually have been in part 1 of this thread back in the days when they were rolled over when they hit 1000. In any case as mentioned to best of my knowledge we have both kept our words and this thread has prospered. btomarra, while you are "free" to write what you please, I ask if possible to please avoid continued veering into the CD pressing direction on this thread. It is a ponderous argument and pointless in that no one's mine will ever change. That type of argument may cause the loss of this excellent thread to closure.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2020
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  13. btomarra

    btomarra Classic Rock Audiophile

    Location:
    Little Rock, AR
    So, as long as I share your views or opinions I can state them? If not, they should be removed? My post didn’t involve you, reply to you or quote you. I have every right to state my opinions as do you.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2020
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  14. Dave

    Dave Esoteric Audio Research Specialist™

    Location:
    B.C.
    Hi Rick. Yes I remember our agreement with one another and we've both been steadfast in keeping our pressing differences, or not, opinions to ourselves as we both promised each other we would do. The thing is here though I'm just not comfortable in telling another member what they can and are able to say as I have no power or right to insist they do this. Only our host or staff can insist on anything of this magnitude. Ours is an agreement to keep the peace because we're both so strong-headed in our opinions, respectfully so, and felt it was damaging and not contributing to our music discussions on the Forums. We made the correct decision for us and I'm in no way implying your points are not valid because they worked so well for us. :)
     
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  15. ricks

    ricks Custom Title:

    Location:
    Nowhere Fast
    Correct, you do, and I even stated you were "free" write what ever you please and never mentioned anything about having your posts removed. It was only a slippery slope type plea.

    Good Folks on this thread accept my apologies. I was only trying to prevent the thread from degrading as so many here that introduce the CD pressing argument do to the point they are closed.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2020
  16. btomarra

    btomarra Classic Rock Audiophile

    Location:
    Little Rock, AR
    No worries. A forum member asked me what differences I heard and I replied back in response. If he hadn’t I would have let that subject go.
     
    ricks likes this.
  17. Ben C.

    Ben C. Forum Resident

    Location:
    New England
    I think the issue is that your reply on the difference you heard was the last 9 words after a rehash of that old pressing debate. But it's hard not to bring that old chestnut up when talking about some issues like this. Nothing adversarial about it though.
    In any case - for whomever is watching, I'm not offended and don't care about the pressing issue thing at all and don't want to discuss it :)
     
    ricks likes this.
  18. btomarra

    btomarra Classic Rock Audiophile

    Location:
    Little Rock, AR
    You are reading way too much. I know nothing about any debate. As you can see I have not participated much in this thread and it’s a two parter. I responded honestly to your post as you’re the one who asked what differences I heard. Someone else intervened. I didn’t ask you to discuss anything, You approached me. :)
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2020
  19. scroydon

    scroydon New Member

    Location:
    Ohio

    Hi, Robin. I have looked over the above impressive work. I am only a tad familiar with EAC. I have used it to covert a few CDs to mp3 for my phone that I use at my work. Your spreadsheet must of taken a very long time to compile. That said, I am late to this party and new to good CDs vs compressed mediocrity. With regards to "Caress of Steel", I don't know how to interpret the data. Is there a link to understanding this info? I'm guessing higher numbers equates to better recordings. But the color seems to not correlate with these values. My only observation is that the numbers decrease as the tracks move from beginning to end. Looking forward to getting schooled!
     
  20. scroydon

    scroydon New Member

    Location:
    Ohio

    Please excuse my ignorance in this topic. I understand that newer reissues can suffer from improvements in noise reduction and whatnot that could require remastering but I don't understand why a Japanese or German produced CD would require different mastering that would alter the art form.

    Frankly, my naivete begs the question, how can a production company mess with the artistry of a band and the recording engineers original intent?
     
  21. btomarra

    btomarra Classic Rock Audiophile

    Location:
    Little Rock, AR
    I hope it’s okay if I chime in. Forgive me for any misstatements. The higher the peak value the less room there is for dynamics. In other words 100 is the ceiling. If the values are too low, the music is too quiet and can become too hissy or you can never turn it up enough to enjoy. I had one Genesis cd like that.

    The color coding is just to distinguish the different masterings of the albums or same mastering if volume level adjusted.

    I will let others weigh in and correct me for any errors I made...
     
  22. ricks

    ricks Custom Title:

    Location:
    Nowhere Fast
    I feel that discussion is way beyond the intent of this thread topic. IMHO cast a line out in the form of a new thread, I'm sure you get plenty of bites and bytes :)
     
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  23. Here is my updated list of mastering mix variations:

    The Weapon, Signals, MFSL Ultradisc CD mastering, “And the things that he fears/Are a weapon to be held against him” lyric missing from bridge, slightly longer fade

    New World Man, Signals, MFSL Ultradisc, slightly longer fade

    Analog Kid, Signals MFSL Ultradisc, slightly longer fade

    Carve Away the Stone, Test for Echo, Rush Remasters CD mastering, “Sisyphus” background vocals missing

    Mystic Rhythms, Power Windows, Sector 3 CD and hi-res mastering, extra synthesizer notes towards end

    Force Ten, Hold Your Fire, Sector 3 CD and hi-res mastering, “Rising falling at force ten" lyrics channels reversed and narrowed; reversed channels on solo guitar towards middle of song

    Time Stand Still, Hold Your Fire, Sector 3 CD and hi-res mastering, additional Simmons electronic drum hits in one place in middle of song

    Second Nature, Hold Your Fire, Sector 3 CD and hi-res mastering, keyboard and sound effects channels reversed in multiple places

    Mission, Hold Your Fire, Sector 3 CD and hi-res mastering, strings added during second chorus

    Turn The Page, Hold Your Fire, Sector 3 CD and hi-res mastering, main vocal panning during chorus

    Tai Shan, Hold Your Fire, Sector 3 CD and hi-res mastering, wind chimes added during intro

    High Water, Hold Your Fire, Sector 3 CD and hi-res mastering, additional guitar lick towards end of song

    Limbo, Test for Echo, Sean Magee LP and hi-res mastering, Monster Mash samples (sound effects and vocals) missing

    Dog Years, Sean Magee LP and hi-res mastering, 5:28 length vs. the original 4:55 (probably just longer fade)

    Resist Sean Magee LP and hi-res mastering, 4:36 length vs. the original 4:23 (probably just longer fade)

    By-Tor and the Snow Dog, Fly By Night, Sean Magee LP and hi-res mastering and Archives vinyl LP mastering, extra seconds of repeating chimes (the Magee mastering has an extra 53 seconds and the Archives LP an extra 28 seconds. Both variations were created to emulate/approximate the chimes infinitely playing on the LP side 1 runout groove on the original vinyl.)
     
  24. Although not an LP mastering variation, I had completely forgotten about the 12" single mix of The Weapon, with the silly Count Floyd intro:



    The only mix difference is the intro. On top of that, about 2 minutes were edited from the song.
     
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  25. BiNNS

    BiNNS Forum Resident

    Location:
    Ontario, Canada
    I'm thinking of purchasing some WG Atomics. The early Canadian Anthems and MFSL's are far too pricey for me right now. I admit I did not read this entire thread as of yet. If anyone can point out specific glitches or anomalies on these cd's, it would be much appreciated.
     

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