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The Sam Cooke Thread*

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Steve Hoffman, Apr 10, 2007.

Page 1 of 19
  1. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host Thread Starter

    Location:
    Los Angeles California, USA
    Just got a minty RCA-Victor Hugo & Luigi first press 45 of Sam Cooke's "Good Times" (you know the song, "Get in the groove and let the good times roll, we're gonna stay here till we soothe our soul if it takes all night long...").

    So, guess what? Seems it's a totally different performance from the one that is on CD. Since it wasn't on the last remixed Sam Cooke comp for some stupid reason I ordered up the 45. It is a totally different version from the stereo. Not a different mix, but TOTALLY different music, background vocals and Sam's performance. The version on the CD "A Man And His Music" or whatever it's called sounds like the demo compared to this version. How could such a mistake have been made?

    So, what's the STORY?!
     
    Steve Hoffman, Apr 10, 2007
    #1
    kt66brooklyn, The Quiet One, HorseyAnn and 5 others like this.
  2. bartels76

    bartels76 Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    CT
    What does the Portrait Of A Legend comp have? I don't have it handy.
     
    bartels76, Apr 10, 2007
    #2
  3. paul.y

    paul.y New Member

    Location:
    chicago, il
    further comparisons?

    Have you compared it to the versions on the Keep Movin' On CD compilation? and to the version on the Ain't That Good News lp? They should be the same.

    Given when Sam recorded this, Hugi & Luigi should have been out of the picture, too...so that ascription seems strange as well.
     
    paul.y, Apr 10, 2007
    #3
  4. Mal

    Mal Phorum Physicist

    Location:
    Manchester, England
    For what it's worth there is no variation between the versions on the SACDs "Portrait Of A Legend", "Keep Movin' On" and "Ain't That Good News".

    Mind you, they probably just used the same DSD master of "Good Times" for each SACD - it's possible there should be a different version on "Ain't That Good News". Anyone have the LP who can check?

    As far as I remember this version on the SACDs is the same as the one on the "Man and his Music" CD. I'd check but I catapulted that turkey over Beachy Head years ago......

    :)
     
    Mal, Apr 10, 2007
    #4
    Sneaky Pete likes this.
  5. Mal

    Mal Phorum Physicist

    Location:
    Manchester, England
    Hugo & Luigi produced all the "Ain't That Good News" sessions according to the notes in the SACD.....
     
    Mal, Apr 10, 2007
    #5
  6. paul.y

    paul.y New Member

    Location:
    chicago, il
    hugo & luigi

    I can't check anything, since I am at work, but what does Guralnick's notes from Keep Movin' On credit?

    And what production ascription is accorded in his bio on Cooke? I certainly make mistakes, but I always thought that Cooke had jettisoned them by the time he resumed recording in late 1963...
     
    paul.y, Apr 10, 2007
    #6
  7. Mal

    Mal Phorum Physicist

    Location:
    Manchester, England
    Just checked - on page 16 of the "Keep Movin' On" SACD booklet Guralnick states that Al Schmmitt took over from Hugo and Luigi in March 1964.

    According to the notes on all three SACDs, "Good Times" was recorded 12/21/63 (track, 25 takes), 2/2/64 (vocals).

    Not sure if this 45 version is from the same session dates though......

    Steve - how different is it? Does it sound like a different take from the same sessions as the common stereo version or does it sound like it's from a completely different session?
     
    Mal, Apr 10, 2007
    #7
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  8. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    You tell us.

    I've never heard the single. I once saw a note about "extra guitar" or something but that's it.

    The Man and His Music, Keep Movin' On and Portrait of a Legend all have the same take/version.
     
    lukpac, Apr 10, 2007
    #8
    Tommyboy likes this.
  9. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host Thread Starter

    Location:
    Los Angeles California, USA
    Extra guitar, background vocals instead of Sam's voice overdubbed, handclaps, different vocal performance on the 45. I have no idea what the original stereo version on old LP sounded like.

    If the CD versions you all are talking about have a true background chorus instead of Sam singing with himself it's the "hit" version.
     
    Steve Hoffman, Apr 10, 2007
    #9
    CBackley likes this.
  10. paul.y

    paul.y New Member

    Location:
    chicago, il
    paul.y, Apr 10, 2007
    #10
  11. rob68

    rob68 Senior Member

    Location:
    Michigan
    It also says it took 25 takes with numerous vocal overdubs for all the background parts. Maybe the single was taken before the finished regular version was complete.
     
    rob68, Apr 10, 2007
    #11
    dee likes this.
  12. Mal

    Mal Phorum Physicist

    Location:
    Manchester, England
    I've only ever heard the stereo version with Sam doing all the vocals, no handclaps

    That's the version on the 3 SACDs and "Man and His Music".

    Wonder what's on the original mono and stereo "Ain't That Good News" LPs?.....
     
    Mal, Apr 10, 2007
    #12
  13. paul.y

    paul.y New Member

    Location:
    chicago, il
    about that 45

    Is the 45 you just received RCA 8368? That is supposed to be the original issue from 1964 (with Tennessee Waltz on the flip). If it is, that is mighty strange...though the link I posed does indicate there was an alternate version that WAS issued.
     
    paul.y, Apr 10, 2007
    #13
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  14. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host Thread Starter

    Location:
    Los Angeles California, USA
    8368, yes.

    No way this is an alternate take. This is a production that was WORKED ON and perfected with a lot of thought. I mean, a true finished master. I think the alternate take is the turkey version we've been saddled with all of these years.:shake:
     
    Steve Hoffman, Apr 10, 2007
    #14
    McLover likes this.
  15. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    So is the basic take in fact different or the same?

    I guess it's all relative, since the "turkey" version seems pretty close to perfection already.
     
    lukpac, Apr 10, 2007
    #15
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  16. Ed Bishop

    Ed Bishop Incredibly, I'm still here

    Well, we haven't been saddled with it, since the 45 has the 'hit' version, right? :D What I don't remember is if the mono pressing of AIN'T THAT GOOD NEWS has this mix, or the more common version. Can't say I remember hearing the single version in stereo, ever, but I'd need to confirm that by hearing the stereo pressing, which isn't possible right now.

    :ed:
     
    Ed Bishop, Apr 10, 2007
    #16
  17. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host Thread Starter

    Location:
    Los Angeles California, USA
    The music is similar but a different take but the vocal performance is totally different, the background singers are true singers, not Sam overdubbed and there are hand-claps and extra guitars.

    So the only one I've ever heard until today is incorrect but we've only heard the CD's. Obviously they goofed and that goof has been perpetuated over the years. Faulty vault work I guess or maybe that's an ALBUM version that was copied. Definitely not the correct performance!

    So, all different. It's probably on eBay for 2 bucks on an RCA-Victor 45; that's how I found it. Maybe there is a Gold Standard 45 reissue from the late 1960's that would sound even better and be cheaper..

    So, is the old mono LP version correct in that it has this "hit" take? Does the old stereo LP have it? Gotta know! I have no Sam Cooke on LP vinyl. It always sounded so dreadful compared to the 45's...
     
    Steve Hoffman, Apr 10, 2007
    #17
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  18. Ed Bishop

    Ed Bishop Incredibly, I'm still here

    My guess is that RCA has been issuing the stereo version from AIN'T THAT GOOD NEWS all these years, and of course that's not the first time this happens and the hit version gets lost or relegated to a reissue 45(if that).

    :ed:
     
    Ed Bishop, Apr 10, 2007
    #18
    Jarleboy likes this.
  19. McLover

    McLover Senior Member

    Location:
    Oak Ridge, Tennessee
    Hi Steve,

    The 45 version was recorded first and was aimed at R & B jukeboxes and radio. The Stereo is a later version on the albums. I love the 45. We have a Gold Standard version from the late 1960's which is sonically better and still the real 45 RPM version.
     
    McLover, Apr 10, 2007
    #19
    dee and SOONERFAN like this.
  20. vanmeterannie

    vanmeterannie Forum Resident

    Location:
    Wild, Wonderful West Virginia

    No, my mono LP has the "regular" version with just two part harmony, the same version that's on A Man And His Music...sorry!
     
    vanmeterannie, Apr 10, 2007
    #20
    McLover likes this.
  21. DjBryan

    DjBryan New Member

    Location:
    USA
    Steve anyway can you link a small portion of the song?
     
    DjBryan, Apr 10, 2007
    #21
  22. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host Thread Starter

    Location:
    Los Angeles California, USA
    So let me get this straight. The actual hit version of Sam Cooke's "GOOD TIMES" has never been re-released, has never appeared on a stereo or mono LP, has never appeared on a compact disc?

    That's crazy talk, Pilgrim!

    Well, thanks for the information!
     
    Steve Hoffman, Apr 10, 2007
    #22
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  23. BoraBora

    BoraBora Forum Resident

    Location:
    Paris (France)
    Steve, according to the discography published on the wonderful ultimatesamcooke.com (sadly offline since some time), the B-side is indeed different from the "The man and his music" version:

    Good Times:"The Man And His Music" CD stereo mix without guitar

    Good Times: A-side, 7/9/64; mono mix w/ more guitar, backing vocals and hand claps

    I saved a lot of info from this site and I'd love to see it back online (if I'm not mistaken, the webmaster posts here... hint hint :angel: ).
     
    BoraBora, Apr 10, 2007
    #23
  24. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host Thread Starter

    Location:
    Los Angeles California, USA
    They are dead wrong. Different vocal performance. Different background vocal performance. Did they actually PLAY the 45 before they wrote that?
     
    Steve Hoffman, Apr 10, 2007
    #24
  25. mr_mjb1960

    mr_mjb1960 I'm a Tarrytowner 'Til I die!

    Location:
    Hudson,Florida 34667 U.S.A.
    RCA had a bad habit in the '60's of re-recording some of their tracks.A good example of this is the Four Jacks & A Jill 45 "Master Jack/I Looked Back" which,for some Unknown Reason,was Re-Recorded for the Stereo Lp of "Master Jack" ( I used to have both the 45 and lp,and could definitly haer the difference). Michael Boyce
     
    mr_mjb1960, Apr 10, 2007
    #25
    McLover likes this.
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