This complicates it further and reminds me of the Beatles' Help. The backing track is in stereo so athat accounts for 2 tracks right away. Let's assume for a minute that a lead vocal was recorded on track 3. Therefore, any further work would have to be done on stage tapes. Perhaps a 3 track stereo mix was transfered to tracks 1 and 2 of another 3 track and Sam either overdubbed his backing vocals onto track 3 of the new tape. Or perhaps, Sam recorded his backing vocal live and mixed on the fly into tracks 1 and 2 during the stereo tape transfer. Either way, Sam's backing vocal exists at least in part on the mono in my opinion so there must have been at least 1 more stage tape for further instrumental and vocal overdubs. Considering the fidelity of the mono, there may have been several stage tapes. I wonder what the mono master sounds like? Any Abkco transfering engineers here? Bob.
Regardless, it's probably fair to assume the Lp version was mixed first, since it was released first. Very possible the single version was a situation where Sam felt he could do a bit more, or just wasn't satisfied with the originally released mix. That it was never mixed to stereo is unfortunate, and one can only hope the multis still exist for that to happen. Still, what we really need, of course, is a mono comp of Sam's hits, but unfortunately that ain't likely to happen.
Hmmm. I see what you're getting at. My ears can't be trusted on this one. I just listened to both versions again and I still hear identical lead vocal performances, right down to those amazing little inflections in Sam's voice. The 45 version sounds speeded up, and -- as I said -- just about every other element of the record is clearly different, so I'm sure you're correct in that the lead vocal is different, as well. By the way, if you're into Sam, note that there are ALSO two different versions of "Feel It," two different versions of "Win Your Love For Me," two different versions of "Almost In Your Arms," two different versions of "You're Always On My Mind" and three different versions of "I'm Just A Country Boy" out there. These are all different takes, not just mixing differences... Of course, there's also that weird business of RCA having the rights to the alternate take of "Another Saturday Night" (take 8), and Abkco claiming the rights to the master take! Clark
Hi Ed. I agree that the stereo mix was most likely done first and later sweetened for the single much like the Mamas and Papas' Creak Alley. Both songs deserve to be available on CD in their mono mixes. Hi Clark. I agree that there are very different things going on with both the instruments and the vocals on each version. However, Luke's sound sample provides the best evidence that the backing track and lead vocal are the same in both cases because they sync up exactly. Even if they recorded to a click track in 1963, there is no way that 2 takes would sync up so well and even if they did, the vocals would come across as "double-tracked". Therefore, all of the differences we here in the mono are the result of recording done aftr the stereo mix was completed. Having said all that, it hardly matters because it's a great song and I want to thank Steve for bringing the mono mix to my attention. Are there any other mono Sam Cooke goodies? Finally, please post the url to your Sam Cooke site if and when you get it back online. I would love to check it out. Bob.
By the way, if you're into Sam, note that there are ALSO two different versions of "Feel It," two different versions of "Win Your Love For Me," two different versions of "Almost In Your Arms," two different versions of "You're Always On My Mind" and three different versions of "I'm Just A Country Boy" out there. These are all different takes, not just mixing differences... I took so long to post that the thread went on without me. Thanks Clark. I only own Portrait of a Legend so there is a lot for me to discover. Bob.
Assuming that both vocals and the basic backing are the same in both versions (sigh), here is how they did it. ORIGINAL SESSION: Three track, music left, music right, Sam middle track. Mono machine going as well. Then (since they had NO Sel-Sync), they rebounced the three track (and the mono) to new machines to add Sam's overdubbed backing vocal. Years go by; wait, a month or two go by. They decide to polish the song for 45 release. They pull the ORIGINAL first generation three track UNDERDUB and rebounce them to new machines both mono and three track adding the cacophony and that's it! The three-track is filed away, to be forgotten, the mono is used to cut the 45 and then filed. Over and out.
I knew there was some reason why I liked you, Steve! (Plus you do some mighty fine work yourself!) Dexter Sam's my favorite too...and "Good Times" is my favorite song of his! We need this version released somehow!
Thanks to this thread I've just gone over to ebay and bought three Sam 45s, including "Good Times." The other two were from the Gold Standard series. Yes I paid too much. No I don't care. Looks like I'm eventually going to be doing a Sam Cooke 45s needledrop collection for myself. I could be doing a lot worse things with my time. Jason
Despite a fair amount of overlap with the "Portrait" disc, I'd really recommend that you pick up the now-deleted hybrid-SACD version of "Keep Movin' On." Copies are still available from various on-line shops, but the stock must be getting low. In addition to the fantastic title track that was somehow previously unreleased, it features lots of other great, late-period Sam Cooke. And, of course, you can't go wrong with the "Live At The Harlem Square Club" CD, which showcases a very raw and powerful R&B performance that's totally unlike the smooth soul heard on the "At The Copa" album. The Harlem Square album was considered for release as a hybrid-SACD disc, but never made it. And the 2-disc set called "Sam Cooke's SAR Records Story" made it all the way to the mastering stage as a hybrid-SACD release, with ADDITIONAL TRACKS not on the previously issued redbook version. A release date was set by Abkco and then the whole thing was scrapped! Too bad, because that is one spectacular collection of early 60s gospel and soul music, and I would drink Shemp Howard's bath water to have that set in the SACD format. Clark
As I try to get the image of you drinking Shemp Howard's bath water out of my head, Clark (or anyone) do you know how many Gold Standard 45s were released on Sam? Steve has said those are the ones to get for sound, so I'm wondering if the discography lists those? Jason
Sorry about the imagery. Grossed myself out on that one. No, I don't know how many Gold Standard 45s were issued. I have a few myself, with some unique pairings ("You Send Me" backed with "Twisting The Night Away"), but I don't know how many Sam singles were issued in that series.
Sorry, I am late to the party and this is a very informative thread. I really like the 45 mix/version. Quite different than the Stereo LP version which I also like. Just a great track. This version needs to be released on CD. After all, this is the version made the original "hit" in real time. Certainly, the "feel" of this version is different... Bob-
RCA/BMG has such a wonderful vault of classic oldies in their original pristine hit mono mixes it's a shame they won't use them. If you ever hear the TOKENS/The Lion Sleeps Tonight or any Neil Sedaka in their original mono hit mixes it will change your life, campers. We are so used to hearing those tinny compressed stereo versions with all of that pointless added mix distortion that we forget what these things REALLY sound like! Believe in the RCA-Victor GOLD STANDARD SERIES of 45 RPM reissues from the late 1960's-70's. They are amazing. Cheap too because they are not the original pressings but later (fantastic) recuts from the correct matrix number masters. A true Gold Mine.
Aaaah... I knew you were posting on this forum. Let me praise you again for www.ultimatesamcooke.com. Like Steve, Sam Cooke is my favorite soul singer (and probably my favorite singer, period), and your site was precious to me. Not wanting to hijack the thread, but may I ask you if you're still working on that Nat King Cole site hosted on Ultimate Sam Cooke last year?
Over the last ten years or so, things have gotten better. Most recently, the James Brown Hip-O singles comps showcase exactly how this should be done(leaving sonic issues aside). Cooke is certainly deserving of the same treatment, but it really does matter who is doing the work, and who controls the masters. That it's Abkco doesn't bode well for Sam... But as you say, the RCA Gold Standard singles are cheap and still readily available, sound great(funny, just like Abkco reissue 45's...), and you get the hit mixes.
I've been working on a reformatted version of the two sites that would function more as a somewhat static archive of information on recordings, videos, etc., with less emphasis on the biographical, peripheral stuff. But as part of those sites, I'd also like there to be an ad-free forum, somewhat similar to what we have here, where people can post info on new releases, or just discuss the music. Otherwise, people would have no reason to revisit the site. The main delay is that I haven't found a Web site format that I really like. But I'd like to get those sites back on line early this summer, assuming my schedule at work gives me enough time to do that. Clark
Steve, I have well-executed vinyl transfers of some of these vintage RCA "hit" mixes and yes, the mixes do sound fantastic. It is amazing to me that RCA/BMG will not release them considering many other mono mixes on other labels have eventually made their way to the CD format over the years. Bob-
What's *really* too bad is that with 3 different releases (Keep Movin' On, Portrait of a Legend, Ain't That Good News), the single version wasn't used on one (probably Portrait of a Legend), especially when ABKCO almost surely has the 3-track. Could have been first time on CD *and* first time in stereo. And then both versions would have been available. Clark, do you have the original mono and stereo mixes of Good News? I've only heard the ABKCO remix and the version (remix?) on The Man and His Music. The ABKCO remix cuts the horns short at the end, while the MAHM mix (which is quite wacky sounding) keeps them going a bit longer. I was wondering how the original mono and stereo mixes end...
Bob, I believe you recently acquired a mono lp version of "Good Times". How does this compare to the single?
Unless I'm mistaken, ABKCO used the 3-tracks for the stereo material, rather than existing stereo mixes. I believe BMG did as well for their box (for the most part) and the 1998 GH CD. I know on the ABKCO version of Nothing Can Change This Love the hiss in the intro gets louder as the music from each track starts, suggesting each track was muted until there was actual music. I can't imagine that was done originally, and the BMG version I have doesn't do that. That said, I've never heard a SC LP, mono or stereo. Oh, and if what Steve has said is true, the 3-tracks are pretty final already, in that the echo and such was printed right on them. Any "remix" would be (or at least should be) nothing more than correctly setting the balances between the 3 tracks.
That last remix CD of the hits (without GOOD TIMES) was a remix but the vocal track was No-Noised for some reason. SOOOO processed. Why bother? The vocals should sound NATURAL, not super-processed. Makes the entire idea of doing a remix pointless.
