Must admit I’m having second thoughts now. I wish I’d thought this through more before impulsively blowing £150 on the armboard The SME309 was up for sale, maybe I’ll put it up again. Will mull it over for another week then make a firm decision.
From everything that I have read, everyone who has critically listened to both the G and the GR can barely tell any difference between the sound of each. But everybody who puts a different mat on anything hears a huge difference. Admittedly different does not necessarily equal better. But it seems like a forgone conclusion that a good mat will make a far bigger difference to the sound than will betting the higher end model. And yes I know that the G is better. But my understanding is that the GR uses the same basic motor technology as the G, even it if it not as refined. The GR does not feature the much more primitive motors of the old MKIIs.
If I had been planned to do what you are/were planning to do, I would have gotten the GR instead. It just seems slightly extreme measure to take for the G.
'everyone who has critically listened to both the G and the GR can barely tell any difference between the sound of each' 'everybody who puts a different mat on anything hears a huge difference' ..... made as absolute statements but these are just observations & opinions ('everybody' must include me, however I disagree).
This is the usual nonsense from forum posts. Claims of mats, cables etc making huge differences when the changes are in fact pretty subtle. There is a post above claiming a contrary experience in changing mats. Do you seriously think Technics would make a player that retails for just over £1k that sounds as good as the £3K model? There are quite large differences in design and build between the two models under the surface even if the basic technology is the same.
That’s the thing though, it wasn’t planned at all. For various personal reasons I won’t bore anyone with here, I needed a smaller, more compact yet high quality deck to “replace” my Garrard 301 with for the time being (the 301 is carefully boxed up in the loft now). It occured to me as I was taking the arm off the 301 etc. how it might sound on the 1200G. A bit of Googling around and I’d ordered the arm plate before really thinking things through. All very impulsive of me. I guess if it’s as easy to fit a new arm as the instructions say (and I do have experience of changing the arm on a mk2 1200) it won’t hurt to just try it. If I don’t get along with it it’d easy to put the original arm back in place.
My experience with mats in the past has been that the wrong one can ruin the sound of a TT, and that the right one can help noticeably. I tried a Herbies mat on my Linn years ago, and it ruined the sound. But on a Thorens TD126, I liked the effect. And yes, while I certainly have no doubts whatsoever that the G is the better built machine; the laws of diminishing returns always apply to audio. So will it sound 50% better? My guess is that it almost certainly will not. But will it sound 5% better? My guess is that it might. Is such a difference enough to be worthwhile? Perhaps it is; but that is a personal judgment which depends upon the what each particular buyer values. Anyways, I have an open mind on this whole topic, and I am more than happy to be proven wrong. I just wish that I had the ability to actually compare the sound of a G for myself without having to buy one.
Although strictly a guess, i'm betting that the magnesium tonearm and higher mass platter of the G, which has definitely created a different tonearm resonance response than the GR, will be more friendly and sound better with cartridges that are less than an ideal system mass for cartridge compliance based resonance. I nailed the match near dead nuts at 10Hz with my GR and it sounds phenemonal but doubt it would do as well "out of bounds" when compared to the G. In other words, a sonic advantage for the G.
Wow - only 5%? My experience suggests that going from £1K to £3K+ for a turntable should improve sound by 20% at least but maybe not in immediately obvious ways in a quick side by side demo. Still diminishing returns obviously but a smaller improvement would only kick in over £10K or even £20K. A mat change to the right mat would likely make a 5% improvement over a stock mat. I'm assuming the stock mat is in some way compatible with the design in the first place. You have to hit on the right mat in the first place and as pointed out some mats are worse than the stock mat.
Quick question for any arm & cartridge matching gurus out there. Would an Audio Technica VM750SH be better matched in terms of compliance to the stock Technics SL-1200G tonearm, or the SME 309 (magnesium arm tube version)? Thanks. Audio Technica VM750SH Dual Moving Magnet Stereo Cartridge with Shibata stylus https://sme.co.uk/audio/product/series-300/ Grand Class Direct Drive Turntable System SL-1200G Hi-Fi Audio | Technics UK
The percentage I threw-out are both theoretical and completely subjective. If you compare the actual measured performance of the G and the GR, they are nearly identical, with the primary exception of the amount of platter deadening. So if one were to go by this sort of thing, these percentages might come down to much less than a 1% difference in actual performance. The primary difference in the performance according to Technics literature is that the G has a deader-platter than does the GR. So in theory it seems to make sense that if a deadening platter mat were used on the GR, that the differences between the two machines could be minimized. But then again this is audio, and if one is a subjectivist, then measurements are largely ignored, and our made-up subjective percentages cannot be verified, nor compared to each other. So in this world, your subjective 20% might in fact be equal my subjective 5%. Who knows? I'm not making this point to rip-on subjectivists here, because to a larger degree, I am one myself. I'm only pointing out how completely meaningless it is for us to try to make comparisons with made-up subjective numbers. That is why I vastly prefer to use a set of adjectives which most of us subjectivists largely agree upon the meaning-of for sonic comparisons instead of the meaningless numbers which we both made-up above.
Look on their website. They list the exact same W&F and rumble specs for both units. They only advertise the differences in build-quality, and platter damping. But as a subjectivist, I do not personally believe that these specs represent the whole picture of a TTs performance; only a portion of it. And I definitely believe that build quality matters. The big question is: Exactly how much does it matter in this particular case?
For GR owners that have the herbies mat, which size should I get if I want it to match exactly the stock rubber mat?
RE: headshells for the new Technics SL 1200 GR - Rob_1 - Vinyl Asylum RE: headshells for the new Technics SL 1200 GR - Rob_1 - Vinyl Asylum One always has to be concerned with the weight of a "new" headshell and how that will interact with the compliance of any given cartridge of course. The Yamamoto HS4 will certainly be heavier than the Technics headshell so that is a consideration. My experience with it comparing it with the Jelco headshell (they are within about 1.5 grams of each other, the Yamamoto being just slightly lighter), albeit not on the Technics, using the same cartridge would have me believe, though, that the difference in performance is much more about the materials in use than the minor difference in weight/mass. Admittedly, different headshells may provide very different results with different cartridges. The wonderful but complicated world of analog.
Perfecting my 1200G to suit my tastes was a lengthy and very enjoyable process. From the off my number one reccomendation for owners of G and GR, is to buy some ultra pure headshell cables to replace the ‘stock’ ones. This is an inexpensive and very worthwhile upgrade and it’s immediately noticeable. Fiddly though.....and saved me new headshell purchase. Turntable mats should only ever really be about tuning the sound. I found the stock rubber mat slightly bright in my system. Bought a wooden-bull mat, which is leather on cork, and that was slightly too dull. The stayer was a Pathe-Wings cork and felt mat from Germany. A halfway house sound wise between the two and perfect for my tastes and the bonus is, it’s exactly same diameter as Technics Mat, so you get to see the gorgeous brass edge on the platter too. Tracking weight is critical on this table and I found the best way was to start with the lowest recommended cartridge mass, weighed precisely with digital scale, and then just use the counter weight to dial in increments of 0.5g till I hit the sweet spot, which in my case was only 2g from minimum. I am unsure that the anti-skating is as accurate as the rest of this accomplished table and I ended up tuning it in by ear. Finally I used a great pair of VDH interconnects into my amp (great improvement) and an upgraded power cable of which I could detect zero improvement in the performance but it stays, because I’m anal. Levelling is critical too but once everything is sorted this table needs no other fettling and I love that about it. It’s my last ever TT until the lottery win comes along and I can purchase the SL1000r! I would love to read anybody else’s tips?
Which specific model of Pathe-Wings mat did you buy? The A-RM 3 KNF-GCN and the A-RM3 KNF-GSN look good, though I have no idea what the difference between them is. Also, the stock 1200G mat is 11.5" or 292.1mm, whereas the Pathe-Wings mats are 295mm or 0.1" wider in diameter. Could you post a picture of the mat on your 1200G? I just want to see how far to the platter edge the mat goes.
Only change on mine is to the mat but I have a rather bizarre one that I 'discovered' just before my last trip to America..... I have always played vinyl with a turntable cover closed (cleaned records, & stylus, dust before/after play etc) but perceived hifi wisdom suggests that amplified vibration may cause slight distortion with the tiny signal. Makes sense to me. In all the years since the early 70s (!) I never tried a back-to back comparison in case I found I preferred it without the cover (!!) but back in May I put an LP on the 1200G platter and just happened to place the Nightwish Decades vinyl box set on top of the closed lid part way through. When I sat back down, I swear that overall presentation became sweeter and even tighter. I then repeated this a number of times with other albums & 'felt' the same - however I was leaving for the airport & California the next day on one of our regular 1-2 month visits. I returned a few days ago & have continued to try this - does seem logical that the effect of some heavy, inert damping material covering the acrylic cover (not the dome of course) may be having an effect. In any case it surely can't be making things worse? I have quite a lot of leftover Acoustic Soundproofing sheet which has the mass & weight of lead so I'm going to cut a couple of squares of this with slits to take the 'dome' & see what effect it has, if any..... (Please, nobody else take this as a sure-fire tweak - I used to be as susceptible to audio placebo as anyone (born-again cynic now). I did say my tweaking days are over & they really should be, especially as the new 1200s are basically plug & play - damn it, damn it)
Hmmm, need to investigate as I bought direct from eBay and didn’t know there were choices, the fact that the mat was the same size as the Technics Mat was a welcome bonus. I apologise as I still haven’t managed to work out how to load a photo on this forum with an iPad. Right, dug out receipt and it’s telling me it’s a PW-RM 4KNF-B. The description then reads, Rekord Matte 4mm Kork & Naturautchuk & Filtz ( Black )...in lieu of photo I can tell you it looks as good as the Technics Rubber Mat. The only thing is I had to raise arm-collar to 2mm setting.
If you create a free Imgur account, you can upload the photo from your iPad to Imgur, then once uploaded, copy the BBC code link for the photo and paste it in a message here. But thank you for the other info.
As Blakep quoted my post from Vinyl Asylum; I can expand that I listened to both TTs the G and the GR with the best of high end equipment/cables a dealer can offer. I went for the GR based on that to my ears the difference between both TTs was not that much as to dish out two extra thousand dollars. And yes the Yamamoto head shell combined with the Nottingham mat closed the gap to a point that the difference didn't matter to me anymore, once set up in my living room with my equipment. I'm pretty sure that the G set up with the same changes would outdo the GR, but for what I hear in my listening room I'm most definitely satisfied.
2 Grams more than the recommended tracking force? That sounds a tad excessive to me. I can't help but wonder if what you are really preferring is an effectively lower VTA for your cartridge, since putting that much force on your cantilever will definitely be changing your stylus rake angle which has the same effect on your stylus as does lowering your VTA. Have you tried reducing the tracking force slightly, combined with lowering the VTA on your arm yet? I'm guessing that this might be easier on your records.
I remove the dust cover whenever I play vinyl on my SL1200 G. That big piece of plastic is a source of resonance; therefore, removing it is the simplest and best option.
