The Technics SL-1200 GAE/G/GR general questions thread

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Halloween_Jack, Aug 1, 2018.

  1. Mike70

    Mike70 Forum Resident

    Well, i mentioned clearly that my opinion was based totally in values offered by the brand ... and in theorical aproximations. I have the vm540 in my technics without any issue, no woofer pumping, distortions or whatever.
    In any way, 23 or 14 are bad numbers for the technics tonearm, and the vm500 / 700 have a better internal motor that the vm95. I decide for the vm500 over the vm95 any day.
     
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  2. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    I think you mean "aren't" bad numbers.

    On a Technics tonearm, any of the VM95s will give a resonance measurement of ~9.5hz, which is pretty close to ideal.

    With the VM500/700, resonance will be lower, more like ~7hz. A little on the low side, but probably okay in practical use in most systems.

    As for the generators, I have used both the 2 coil and 4 coil generator from AT and prefer the 2 coil generator these days, mainly because there is a tendency for treble boost with the 4 coil generator at a ~200pf/47k load. I had to load down my 4 coil AT cart to flatten out the frequency response and get it closer to neutral. That is also based on measurements.
     
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  3. JohnQVD

    JohnQVD bought too many records this week

    Location:
    Buffalo, NY
    Is that true of all the styli, or just the ML and SH? According to AT’s published specs, the compliance of the SH and ML is higher than the elliptical, which is higher than the conical in each series. But they list the same compliance for SH and ML on both the VM95 and VM500/700 series. The published compliance for the ellipticals and conical is slightly lower on the VM95 series.

    I ask because, if those above numbers are right for all of the styli on those platforms, then that means AT’s published compliance specs are more or less completely useless. As opposed to just being somewhat useless.
     
  4. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    I have been using ATs more than any other brand over the past several years and learned to completely ignore the published compliance specs.

    In a given series, compliance is usually pretty much the same throughout. I tested the VM95C and the ML here and compliance was pretty much the same.
     
  5. JohnQVD

    JohnQVD bought too many records this week

    Location:
    Buffalo, NY
    Ahh, ok. Good to know. Thank you!

    To this point, I’ve only tried the VM540ML on two different tables and learned to take the numbers with a grain of salt at best.
     
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  6. Classicrock

    Classicrock Senior Member

    Location:
    South West, UK.
    The difference in price between the Shibata stylus and a full cartridge is small so I would advise the later. Then you have two cartridges.
     
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  7. FalseMetal666

    FalseMetal666 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    How do you go about testing the compliance?
     
  8. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    Put the cart on a tonearm of known effective mass. Record the output of a test record, or even a normal record of music. Analyze the "main" resonant frequency using software, then work backwards to a Western compliance number.

    There are other ways to test that involve dropping the stylus on a test record, and then analyzing the output. Further, we also have third party lab tests occasionally from places like Lowbeats, Hifi World, HFN/Miller Audio Research, etc.
     
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  9. FalseMetal666

    FalseMetal666 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    Makes sense. Is it reliable AT ALL to depend on the "multiply by 1.7" rule of thumb for Japanese --> western compliance conversion?

    Always seemed dubious. I ask because I'm specifically curious about Denon specs - I have a DL-103D that's bound for retipping and then going on my Technics.
     
  10. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    NO. NOT AT ALL. PLEASE STOP DOING THIS!
     
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  11. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    If the cart has a stiff suspension to start with, it will be a stiff suspension after most average retips. An average retipper will simply cut off the cantilever at the base, leaving a small stub of cantilever to graft on another cantilever + stylus. Lengthening the cantilever more from the original one may give you a margin increase in compliance, but if you want a more compliant cart out of it the retipper would need to do suspension surgery and replace the rubber damper with a less stiff one. Most retippers will not do suspension surgery, or if they do, they will charge accordingly for it.

    Honestly if you really want a more compliant cart, the easiest solution is to just buy a more compliant one to start with. The Denon 103s are not the best match for a 1200 arm. They can be made to work okay, but not ideal unless you are looking at adding mass to the headshell and counterweight.
     
  12. FalseMetal666

    FalseMetal666 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    Yeah, the standard 103 has an advertised compliance of 5 and the 103D variant is advertised as 12. So, at least ostensibly, it's a much better fit for the Technics arms though I've found only minimal feedback from folks to confirm this.
     
  13. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    If you can record the output of your TT to a computer via a USB audio interface, we can find out in minutes if it's a good fit or not.
     
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  14. FalseMetal666

    FalseMetal666 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    Cool. Which test record or test tone type is best?
     
  15. goonybird

    goonybird Forum Resident

    Location:
    Northampton UK
    Have many test records but recently got the updated HiFiNews test LP.
    With an Audio Technica Art 9xa I got a lateral resonance of 9hz. Happy with that.
    There are comments the frequency on this lp isn't accurrate? but they've been making these since 1969? so I would suggest it maybe a testing error (speed?)
     
  16. avanti1960

    avanti1960 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago metro, USA
    Straight from the AT web site (first time I have ever seen this endorsed by a manufacturer BTW)

    "...To determine where the resonant frequency of a particular cartridge/tonearm combination will occur, you must first know a few things about your equipment. You will need to know the total effective mass of your turntable’s tonearm assembly, the compliance specification of the cartridge you are considering and the weight of the cartridge. Note that Audio-Technica specifies compliance at 100 Hz. Many resonant frequency calculators, however, use a compliance measurement taken at 10 Hz for their calculations. To determine the compliance of a cartridge at 10 Hz when only the compliance at 100 Hz is stated, multiply the 100 Hz measurement by 1.5 or 2.0. Once you have gathered this information, you can determine the................."

    Audio Solutions Question of the Week: How Do I Determine Which Audio-Technica Cartridge Best Suits My Turntable?
     
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  17. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    Record 1 minute of actual music onto a WAV file via an audio interface. PM me with the WAV file. If you have a preamp with a subsonic filter, you want to turn that OFF if you can, otherwise it may screw up the results.

    Still wrong, like a lot of info the USA branch of AT gives out.
     
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  18. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    The HFN records are basically audiophile toys. They are not professional broadcast test records. As such, I do not trust them for any serious testing.
     
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  19. Mike70

    Mike70 Forum Resident

    Is like the AS settings ... many people talking about the blank disk and others saying that's awful.
    I use the Soundsmith method and I think it's pretty accurate, but always read that test records ends with higher AS settings ... as in blank records.

    Vinyl have many undocumented vodoos ... almost religious.
     
  20. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    Except as far as what I'm talking about, there isn't any "voodoo".

    A German magazine recently tested a bunch of AT carts and their results are pretty much what I've described over and over w/r/t compliance. Even though I don't have all the fancy gear they have to test with, the methods and results aren't much different.

    It is a fact that whenever you play a record the resonant frequency of the tonearm/cart combo is always present. Unless you have some type of crazy damping system, far more damping than even a KAB damper, it will be there and is easily observable using software. Anyone can duplicate this test in a "voodoo" free manner.

    The only other thing of real note that may complicate things are some preamps with very aggressive subsonic filters.
     
  21. Twinsfan007

    Twinsfan007 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ
    I see Elusive Disc has the SS Carmen MKII on sale for half off. I wonder how those sound with the 1200....anyone have any experience?
     
  22. CTA

    CTA Well-Known Member

    For what it's worth: The HFN record (Producer's cut) and the software analysis both gave the exact same result in my case, so at least as far as the lateral resonance test is concerned the HFN test record is certainly dependable.
     
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  23. farewelltransmission

    farewelltransmission Forum Resident

    Location:
    NYC
    I have now owned my Technics SL1200GR for a year and couldn't be happier with it. It's paired with an 2M Black cartridge, a very old NAD integrated amp, and Triangle Titus bookshelf speakers.

    The amp is struggling these days and I noticed that one of the channels is oddly quieter than the other. All of this to say, I'm beginning to contemplate a new amp and set of speakers and am really overwhelmed with indecision. I know that this is a terribly vague question, but where does one even begin?! With COVID I can't really go demo a lot of equipment, and so much of my search will be online. If anyone has any tips - maybe not even specific equipment - I'd be super grateful!
     
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  24. Mobs

    Mobs Forum Resident

    Location:
    Parkland, FL
    I have a SoundSmith Sussurro on my 1200G and it sounds excellent.
     
  25. Pmds55889397

    Pmds55889397 Forum Resident

    That really depend on your budget and if looking for used or s/h ?

    Those Triangle are quite easy driven, - one of the best amplifiers i've heard at true budget price is the new Rega IO.
    30w should be enough and a massive improvement on any Nad amp.

    Maybe buy online with rights of return.?
     
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