The Technics SL-1200 GAE/G/GR general questions thread

Right, but when a turntable or arm manufacturer includes the effective mass of the arm in the specs, there’s no way their spec applies precisely to every cartridge somebody might use, is what I’m saying. They’re giving the EM for the arm, presumably without a cartridge, which seems flawed, right?

 

agreed
But looking at the math even if total mass is off +/- 4 gram only affects outcome a relatively small amount. If avg. cartridge is 6 gram impact is +/- 1.3.
This leads me to believe this is not as critical as I thought. Also why if a mfg. gives an eff mass of x w/o cart you can just add the actual cart weight to get a decent approximation.

 

I would also listen as intently to before and after adding the swimming pool to the GAE.

 

Those SP10's were great for radio broadcast stations b/c of their incredible durability, ease of set-up and maintenance, longevity, and b/c they turned the record at the right speed and kept it there

I do believe tables can sound different from one another. ..For example, I'm very sensitive to speed variations. ..If you listen to sustained piano or guitars notes on a table with poor high W&F, you'll know what I'm referring to. ..That and hum and rumble. Technics DD tables are exceptional in both these respects.

As for why not a Hanpin clone? ..B/c I love the build quality of the GAE. ...If I had the $ I'd probably consider a 1000R. ..But I don't kid myself about it being a big step up in sound Q.

You may remember Michael Fremer posting needle drops of both his 1200G and Continuum Caliburn TT using same cartridge playing same song. ..People struggled to hear a difference b/w this 20K and 200K tt. So clearly there is a point of near-zero returns on incremental spending. I happen to believe it happens around a $1000. At that price you'll find the 1500C - a Table which turns the platter at the right speed, rumble is kept below the groove noise, and the table is sufficiently isolated from vibrations.

I'll go further and say that if people were forced to do all comparing of cartridges via unidentified needle drops, we'd see the end of $1000+ cartridges. ..As well as uber-pricey TTs.

 

Needledrops do not do justice to analog sources...that has been my experiance.

 

Swimming pool

 

Exactly. One reason people may not have been able to tell much difference, IMO, is that with either sample, you’re ultimately hearing Michael Fremer’s A/D converter, whatever software he used to record, and then your own DAC. Same with this suggestion that we wouldn’t hear difference between a 100C and 1000R, or a GR and a G, or whatever other combinations of different-level Technics turntables we’d want to compare. Doing it with needledrops means nothing if our goal is to decide if one turntable sounds better than the other when listening to it as an analog source in a room. Recordings can be useful for other things, like measuring and testing, but to actually compare sound that way only makes sense if your goal is to determine which turntable setup is better for recording needledrops (which is some people’s goal, of course).

 

Personally, if I was fortunate to have a G or GAE, I’d possibly skip the damper altogether, on account of the better arm and the fact that some comparisons seem to think a G arm without damper already sounds better than a GR arm with damper (suggesting the G arm is great in the first place, no improvement needed), and instead possibly use that space for an arm lift.

 

Never understood digitizing your LPs.
I've done some for listening in the auto, but don't do much of that anymore.

 

I can understand if it’s something not available on a digital format or someone would really rather go through that process than just stream in the car or spend a few bucks on a CD copy. I think it’s a whole hobby for some people, too. I’d really rather just play my records, though, and stream when I’m not in the house...

 

Exactly why I find it funny when people “enjoy analogue sound” from records while they’ve hooked it up to an integrated amp with generic built-in DSP engaged or some OEM class D amplification module.
I do think that digitization would preserve the sound properly if done right though... but you only know for sure that you’re hearing all there is, by having a fully analogue system.

 

I guess you’ve never heard a Koetsu.

 

I have a TD-1000 on my 1200G and I don’t agree.
The tonearm might be better than the one on the 1200GR, but the damper still provides a decent improvement.
After paying a few grant (which is a pretty penny to me), I want to get the most out of it, so I didn’t want to skimp on that damper.
However cartridges is something else... since those stylus tips only last about a year or two and I don’t feel like spending a fair amount of money on a regular basis (I intend this to be my endgame TT if it lasts for decades).

 

I don’t want to derail the conversation on dampers, but I’ve been considering one for my GR for a while. In your opinion does it improve the sound noticeably and if so, is that improvement dependent on the type of cartridge used?

 

It’s not derailing at all, in fact the conversation has popped up at least a couple of times previously in the thread. You may want so search the thread for “damper” and read some impressions, but the short answer, IMO, is yes. I have one on my GR, and there are subtle but noticeable improvements. If you read the claims made right on the KAB site, all of that has been true to my observations after installing the damper. It’s not like getting a new turntable or anything, but it’s an improvement. Basically, things are a little tighter and more defined. Well worth the price, as far as I’m concerned.

I can’t say whether the type of cartridge affects the extent to which improvement will be noticed, as I’ve only used it with an AT-VM95ML. The damping effect should be beneficial to any cartridge, though.

 

Thanks! I appreciate your comments. I’m likely leaning towards getting one. At the end of the day, it’s not going to hurt the sound which to me is worse than paying for a placebo effect (I’m not saying that’s what this is at all or dismissing you and others testimony) in which case it’s all upside.

 

The damper is worthwhile with any cartridge, but it will make some cartridges work on the Technics ‘arm that would otherwise be a compliance mismatch, particularly high compliance cartridges that might skip without damping. There are not many (any?) high compliance, light tracking cartridges like the old Stanton and Pickering carts being manufactured today, but I love the sound and the tracking ability of those gems and the damper allows me to use them on a Technics tonearm with no trouble at all. It also will help play nearly any record with even the worst warps.

More subjectively, I think it also helps deep bass response, but that’s a little harder to quantify.

 

Yes its a nice improvement (better bass response), but it depends on the cartridge. Higher compliance cartridges seem to benefit the most from the damper.
For example, it doesn’t do much for my Concorde Century, but it does a great job when I have my 2M Black or Glider SL mounted.
It also helps tracking on warped records.

 

I don't know what @Leonthepro would say about @adhoc's excellent write up either, but I actually consider Leonthepro and @ODS123 to be the lucky ones if they are totally satisfied with a less expensive turntable. If a better turntable didn't allow the arm and cartridge to extract more musical information from the groove, without both internal (vibrating motors etc.) and external noise causing a slight loss and blurring, many people, myself included, would have saved a lot of money.

Having performed dozens (actually many multiple dozen) of turntable demonstrations a generation ago, when people daily compared turntables, often with the same arm and cartridge, I don't agree with their opinion. Many did hear these differences blind and through sub thousand pound amp and speakers using the amps built in phono stage. Surely it can't be that difficult for people to simply listen for themselves and come to their own conclusion?

If the improvement is deemed big or small, a bargain or a lot of money for a small increase is an entirely different matter and totally down to individual.

Many partners came to these demonstrations alongside their magazine holding "expert" usually male partner and without any pre-conceived ideas and despite never having heard equipment comparisons before in a blind demonstration of two turntables, would often very quickly have a clear and reliably repeatable preference. It is amazing what a high percentage, would unknowingly prefer what would be generally(!!) considered the better turntable.

I simply cannot believe that 30 years later, given the same listening opportunity that turntables now sound the same.

I don't run a turntable any more, but have compared the SL-1200GR to the SL-1200G both using the same stylus from an Audio Technica VM95ML. The G for all the reasons @adhoc mentioned was better and no cartridge, phono stage, amp, or mega speakers, regardless of cost can bring back that lossesd, or slightly blurred music.

Dropping a far more expensive (and slightly more revealing!) cartridge into the GR, the G was still musically better.

My opinion and those of the wives and girlfriends, who immediately developed golden ears within 15 minutes of their first listening comparison, are totally irrelevant to anyone else. If something sounds better, it is better and then simply down to the individual if they can justify the cost and cannot live without the improvement. Our ears are pretty amazing and sensitive measuring devices!!


Edit. Comparing needle drops is simply not the same thing as all sorts of compromises can be introduced.

 

I would say thats great for them. I would love to see some ABX tests being done, it would be interesting. If a good quality needledrop makes these differences indistinguishable I would argue they are too small to justify to begin with, for most people anyway.
With some effort you could do live ones without recordings though.

 

Interesting (for me at least) to see they have stealthily updated the pitch control to get rid of the 7-8% dead spot. I assume this will have happened to all models, maybe someone with a recent model can check.

The new measurements present some new questions though!

 

I pretty much agree with the 1000$ break off point.
I found the funniest part with the 1200G vs Cliburn thing was BarakaPDubs video on it. On close inspection, I recall the samples being un named and it being assumed that the slightly nicer looking waveforms and accurate speeds being the Caliburn, while later on it was revealed and it was actually the 1200Gs sample.

 

What compromises?

So differences b/w the G, GR, and 1000R Turntables can be both audible to the ears AND not recordable via analog-to-digital needle-drops? I don't believe that is true. ..I'm reminded of those who believe in ghosts but insist that they cannot be photographed.

This is what I find soooo frustrating about Audio. ..So many of us have subscribed to the notion that validity testing that exists in other scientific and engineering pursuits somehow aren't relevant in Audio. Suggest ADC recordings made w/ different cartridges, cables, power-cords, etc... so people can compare them "blinded" and through their own system/ speakers, and audiophiles will say, "Nope, differences b/w those things are quite apparent, but they will disappear when you try to record them." ..Suggest blinded ABX (switch box) testing and audiophiles say, "Nope.. testing anxiety will make it hard to hear differences under those conditions." ...Suggest expectation bias influences what we hear and people say, "not me, I'm impervious to such biases..."

 

This is exactly how I discovered that differences between cartridges are much, much smaller than I’ve always thought them to be.
Not taking things face value and a healthy level of self criticism is very important if you’re after “truth”, especially when it comes to something so susceptible to errors as perception.
When enjoying music, you have to trust your ears, but when you’re after understanding audio(gear), it’s probably one of the most misleading things you can do to yourself.
I’ve found that flipping that mental switch between analytical listening/thinking and enjoying music can be hard from time to time.