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The Technics SL-1200 GAE/G/GR general questions thread

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Halloween_Jack, Aug 1, 2018.

  1. Davey

    Davey very clever with maracas

    Location:
    SF Bay Area, USA
    It's probably OK, the tonearm resonance will be down around 7Hz, maybe a bit lower, not a big deal if no ill effects. The AT33PTG/II is in the upper end of medium compliance range, so around 20-22 cu in my measurements on my Micro Seiki. The Technics GR tonearm effective mass isn't specified, only the headshell weight, so people guess it's close to the same as the old Technics SL-1200 spec, so around 12 gm. Which puts the total mass with Jelco shell, cartridge, and mounting hardware around 24 gm. Plug that into resonance calculator with 20-22 cu and resonance is ~7 Hz... using the auxiliary weight increases the tonearm effective mass a bit, but many tonearm cartridge combinations do sound better at higher effective mass, at least that is what some of us perceive if not taken to extremes. Tonearm damping helps in these situations too, providing better resonance control and tracking stability across the range, among other benefits, but unfortunately Technics doesn't provide tonearm dynamic damping. Fortunately, aftermarket providers like KAB and others do.


    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2021
    JohnQVD and patient_ot like this.
  2. dreamingtree1855

    dreamingtree1855 Filthy vinyl spinning hipster millennial

    Location:
    New Jersey
    Thank you so much for doing the math I was failing to. So with this as a baseline, I ran the calculator with the weight at 18g (assuming ~6g difference for the stock headshell) and it gets me 8.38hz. Is that considered "better" versus the heavier Jelco's ~7hz?
     
  3. Ingenieur

    Ingenieur I love to travel, but I hate to arrive.

    Location:
    PA
    I'm not sure the effective mass is 12? I found that online, but 8-9 also.
    I also found an equation to calculate it and it came out much higher 25 (w/o headshell).

    I wish Technics actually spec'ed it.
    I can't even find it for older 1200's from them.

    The good news you can plug in 12 and 32 with your cartridge weight and see the difference.
    Looks ok both ways

    I used this calculator for mine:

    Compliance/Effective Mass Calculator
     
    Oelewapper and dreamingtree1855 like this.
  4. Davey

    Davey very clever with maracas

    Location:
    SF Bay Area, USA
    The HS-25 headshell is listed at 12.1 gm on the Jelco site, so will probably increase the effective mass by about 4 grams (maybe less) over the stock headshell since the increase is not all at the stylus point, it is spread over the length of the shell.

    The higher number is "better" in that you are further away from the effects of warps and footfalls and other disturbances that could aggravate the resonance, but may not sound better to you, that's where your own experience comes into play. You can get an opinion here to support almost any change :)

    If I was you, I would just play it on the Jelco shell for an extended period, get to know it well, then mark the shell so the cartridge can be reinstalled exactly the same, and move the AT33PTG/II to the standard Technics shell, align, and listen for awhile. Make notes, then swap back to the Jelco. Report your findings.
     
  5. dreamingtree1855

    dreamingtree1855 Filthy vinyl spinning hipster millennial

    Location:
    New Jersey
    I'll do just that, thanks for the help. I totally get that it's about what I hear, but with these subtle differences I just have no confidence in my ability to "retain" the sound in my mind long enough to flip a record let alone swap the cart ;) I like the "live with it awhile" approach and I'll do just that. I'm not sure if what I'm hearing is more pleasing yet but I do know it sounds very very good!
     
    punkmusick and Davey like this.
  6. RobbieBear

    RobbieBear Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Northants, UK
    I mean, do you really, honestly believe that a stainless steel tonearm, a magnesium tonearm, and a wood tonearm all sound the same? Do you really think that’s true?? Because if you do, as I mentioned before, this hobby may not be for you.[/QUOTE]

    I am not saying the above would sound the same. Can't say I have ever done that sort of comparison. However, in the same vein, don't you think it very telling that massive differences in engineering approaches to turntable design can leave reviewers using extremely expensive supporting electronics splitting hairs as to whether one is superior in terms of SQ?
    I am specifically talking about the extreme high mass approach of many vs the extreme low mass approach of Rega.
     
  7. RPM

    RPM Forum Resident

    Location:
    Easter Island
    12 grams, including headshell, without cartridge. MK2 that is.
     
    Ingenieur likes this.
  8. Ingenieur

    Ingenieur I love to travel, but I hate to arrive.

    Location:
    PA
    Thanks finally found it in a Technics document lol

    [​IMG]
     
  9. RPM

    RPM Forum Resident

    Location:
    Easter Island
  10. rblz17

    rblz17 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Australia
    I recently bought an AT-95ML cart for my 1200GR. Specs indicate cart height is 17mm which according to the Technics manual coincides with a 'zero' arm height control ring position. Fine.

    I also bought a Oyaide BR-12 mat which has a thickness of 5mm vs 3mm for the stock mat. Will this affect arm height?
     
    patient_ot likes this.
  11. Oelewapper

    Oelewapper Plays vinyl instead of installing it on the floor.

    Yes, if the mat is 2mm thicker, your VTA setting needs to be 2mm higher.
     
  12. Pali Gap

    Pali Gap 'Why did you throw the Jack of Hea-arts awayyy?'

    Location:
    Bermuda
    I believe he was comparing Technics decks to each other. Not sure where a Hanpin clone fits into that comparison lol.
     
  13. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    I also use the BR-12. However, I am using an aftermarket headshell with a spacer so I can't give you an exact VTA setting. I would suggest using an index card with lines or an acrylic block to dial it in. AT suggest 23 degrees for that cart, which may or may not match up with the 0 + 2mm setting.
     
    Oelewapper likes this.
  14. Oelewapper

    Oelewapper Plays vinyl instead of installing it on the floor.

    Yes the most accurate way to set VTA is by checking the SRA, but I doubt it's that critical when using a microline.
    I think using an acrylic VTA/azimuth block should be more than accurate enough.
     
    Big Blue and patient_ot like this.
  15. missan

    missan Forum Resident

    Location:
    Stockholm
    For those that want to calculate the tonearm res frequency from known figures. Here is a simple equation for this: Res freq=159/SQRT(cu*eff mass), cu at 10Hz and eff mass is the total.
     
  16. MikeJedi

    MikeJedi Forum Resident

    Location:
    Las Vegas
    FWIW the Music Room has some brand new GAE , G and GRs in stock. Surprisingly :)
     
    Dignan2000 and recstar24 like this.
  17. RPM

    RPM Forum Resident

    Location:
    Easter Island
    Can you dig out info about serial number and if the box states Made in Japan? G or GR, not GAE.
     
  18. RPM

    RPM Forum Resident

    Location:
    Easter Island
    I wonder how to use this with a Concorde, since we know the Technics tonearm EM with the headshell, but not without it. I don't think simple deducting is the correct way to calculate (12 - 7.5 grams).
     
  19. ubiknik

    ubiknik Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago, IL USA
    THIS is a good question.
     
  20. Davey

    Davey very clever with maracas

    Location:
    SF Bay Area, USA
    You don't really know the effective mass of the tonearm, so probably easier to just do a quick measurement instead of trying to calculate it with a bunch of unknowns. Unless you don't have the Concorde yet, guess that would make it more difficult :)
     
  21. RPM

    RPM Forum Resident

    Location:
    Easter Island
    I was talking about mk2 tonearm, Technics specs it at 12 grams including headshell, without cartridge. It's in the linked brochure upthread, post 7309.
    I'm interested in this because there's opinion that Concordes don't work well with Technics tonearms, yet are very popular combo. I suspect wrong numbers are into play when using such calculators.
     
    Davey likes this.
  22. Davey

    Davey very clever with maracas

    Location:
    SF Bay Area, USA
    Gotcha.

    It's probably close enough to just add the extra Concorde weight compared to the stock headshell (18.5 - 7.5) onto the 12 g effective mass, though you can try to find the center of mass and make a reduction based on that, maybe just multiply the difference by 75%, so instead of making tonearm 23 gm effective mass, maybe just 20 gm. Still have to know the stylus compliance, KAB says 25cu lateral, so that would give about 7Hz resonance at 20 gm / 25 cu. So seems pretty much the same as you'd get with a normal weight 25 cu cartridge and the stock headshell.

    What do people say is the problem on the Technics?
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2021
  23. MikeJedi

    MikeJedi Forum Resident

    Location:
    Las Vegas
    If you look on the back looks like the very lightly used GAE and GR they are made in Japan :) You can also give them a call about those and the brand new ones they have in stock. It sounds like those are also Japan made but I would call to make sure
     
  24. Oelewapper

    Oelewapper Plays vinyl instead of installing it on the floor.

    Don't worry about matching a Concorde with a 1200 arm.
    It's a great combination, many people can vouch for it, including myself!
     
    MusicNBeer and patient_ot like this.
  25. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    Weren't Concordes designed with 1200 and similar arms in mind? No idea where this is coming from upthread.
     
    Oelewapper likes this.

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