The Technics SL-1200 GAE/G/GR general questions thread

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Halloween_Jack, Aug 1, 2018.

  1. nomad709

    nomad709 Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    1200G: Higher quality build, magnesium tonearm, heavier aluminum plinth. More of statement piece.

    How those differences translate to better sound over the 1200GR in a blind test is to be determined. As a GR owner myself I'm pretty content with the build quality and sound reproduction.
    A properly setup cartridge on either should sound amazing!
     
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  2. harby

    harby Forum Resident

    Location:
    Portland, OR, USA
    Here's what you posted way back (this whole thread is barely talking about 1200s now...):
    [​IMG]

    Looks like you've also got a peak at 12kHz. Enough to call it coloration. Or "clarity". Someone turned up the treble control. One has to translate the scale, where I'm showing only 5dB range. And then ponder if suggested alterations might be of benefit.

    If you have 100k in MM mode (btw, a capital K is for degrees Kelvin), then that gives you the option of an additional external loading plug. A 150k (parallel) RCA plug + the internal 100k gives 60kOhms that turns out to be useful. With that, you can then see if a total capacitance 50-80pF is something you can achieve, giving extended response.

    We're talking just a decibel here and there, in the highest frequencies you can hear, so the differences will be slight.
     
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  3. JP

    JP Forum Resident

    Location:
    Brookfield, CT
    Point being is that the simulation is quite different than reality. Approximately +1.3dB around 12kHz vs. +2.8, and -1.5dB at 20kHz vs. 0dB. Mechanical resonance of the cantilever must be accounted for.

    And yes, differences are slight for casual listening, but +1dB at 6kHz and +2dB and 8kHz is audible for exactly what it is. Granted, what I listen to normally is flat so it stands out to me on material I know. Not in an 'OMG, it's broken' way, rather that it's simply 'off'.

    On the other hand, I spent part of a day last week measuring and A/B/C listening to cutter feedback, source, and a lacquer to get playback as close to source and feedback as possible. In my world, a dB matters. A lot.
     
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  4. Oelewapper

    Oelewapper Plays vinyl instead of installing it on the floor.

    :biglaugh::biglaugh::biglaugh:
     
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  5. Erocka2000

    Erocka2000 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY, USA
    To get this thread back on track, here is a pic of my 1200G with its new (vintage) tonearm, the Fidelity Research FR-64S (with silver wiring). A more detailed post will come once I've had a chance evaluate the arm over a period of time. I'm also using the Auditorium 23 Hommage mat and an Ortofon LH-9000 headshell, with my Koetsu Urushi Sky Blue.

    [​IMG]
     
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  6. Slick Willie

    Slick Willie Decisively Indecisive

    Location:
    sweet VA.
    When anybody mentions compliance, I brace myself for multiple pages of debates!:D
    Are those same charts from a few pages back? All a blur to me now.
     
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  7. TheVinylAddict

    TheVinylAddict Look what I found

    Location:
    AZ
    Wow. Isn't the 64S a 35G Effective Mass tonearm?
     
  8. Erocka2000

    Erocka2000 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY, USA
    Yup. And its perfect for Koetsu and other low compliance cartridges. But it feels buttery smooth when hand cueing (I don't use the lift).
     
  9. TheVinylAddict

    TheVinylAddict Look what I found

    Location:
    AZ
    I'd like to have that much EM right now on my Yammie GT-2000L as I type - I'm playing with the 32g Ortofon SPU CG25 Di, and my 22g EM tonearm is being pushed to it's limit :)

    I was just exchanging with Davey the other day on another thread that I was thinking of trying the 64S on this platform, I own a number of low compliance cartridges too. But still researching if I'd have to mod the wood plinth or not.

    Nice job. Keep us posted on performance!
     
  10. Erocka2000

    Erocka2000 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY, USA
    It is a 10" arm, so it may not fit on all tables that were configured for 9" arms. It is probably the longest tonearm you can fit comfortably on a 1200 without having to modify the table at all. I just bought an armboard from Ammonite Audio and unscrewed the Jelco armboard I was using and swapped it in. Pretty easy, if a bit tedious with all the screws in the base of the 1200G.
     
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  11. aroney

    aroney Who really gives a...?

    If it's the rubber pad, I always just use a smidge of Armor All or Mothers to smooth it out - no ill effects or discoloring that I've ever noticed either...
     
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  12. Ingenieur

    Ingenieur Just a dog looking for a home...

    Location:
    Back in PA
    Modeling and simulation are appropriate for things like design before constructing to determine feasibility, generate a BOM, etc.

    Also if you can't test something, like a 25 kV 20 kA short circuit.

    It's good for isolating components in a system, like the phono cartridge.

    Many systems are so complex to model will never cover all variables. Measurement may be the only option.

    But imo for audio, measurement is the best way. I believe the proof in the pudding is measurement out of the speaker.
    It is what you hear (at least what you are capable of hearing).
     
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  13. Erocka2000

    Erocka2000 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY, USA
    I guess my attempt to make this thread take a break from endless measurements and focus more on the table and listening to music has failed. :shrug:
     
  14. Ingenieur

    Ingenieur Just a dog looking for a home...

    Location:
    Back in PA
    Not mutually exclusive

    we can do both, multi-task

    :agree:
     
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  15. Slick Willie

    Slick Willie Decisively Indecisive

    Location:
    sweet VA.

    Engineers, whether real or imagined are def of a different breed.
    Not one you'd invite to liven up a party!
    :wiggle:
     
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  16. Ingenieur

    Ingenieur Just a dog looking for a home...

    Location:
    Back in PA
    I represent that :D
     
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  17. Slick Willie

    Slick Willie Decisively Indecisive

    Location:
    sweet VA.
    I am well aware!!!:agree:
     
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  18. Erocka2000

    Erocka2000 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY, USA
    True, but perhaps create a separate thread dedicated to the minutiae of measurements and keep this thread focused on more broad conversations about the tables.
     
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  19. Slick Willie

    Slick Willie Decisively Indecisive

    Location:
    sweet VA.
    Hmmm...
     
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  20. Ingenieur

    Ingenieur Just a dog looking for a home...

    Location:
    Back in PA
    Why?

    It's easy to skip over content I'm not interested in.

    There has been a lot of valuable information shared here. Free and open discussion.
    In my world this information is actually paid for.
     
  21. Slimwhit33

    Slimwhit33 Forum Resident

    Location:
    N America
    Looks amazing! Enjoy the journey!!
     
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  22. Erocka2000

    Erocka2000 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY, USA
    I understand. But you may not realize, but endless pages of numbers, graphs, equations, etc., seems to turn away other newcomers who may be interested in these tables. They check the thread and see page after page of numbers that really don't have anything to do with the tables. Would it be so bad to just create a thread that is solely about measurements? Then you can go buck wild without alienating most people who just have basic questions/comments about Technics.

    I'm not against the engineering side of things at all. I take great pride in setting up my cartridge using various protractors, scales, microscopes, loupes. But not all people are that obsessed and don't really care all that much about in depth measurements of compliance and resonance and electricity. Creating specific threads about those subjects would be great, because everyone who would add to it would most likely be people who are into those types of things.

    For reference, see how many times users have commented that this thread has gone way off track. I just don't understand why you won't just create new threads.
     
  23. Ingenieur

    Ingenieur Just a dog looking for a home...

    Location:
    Back in PA
    I may not realize? That is a backhanded insult.
    I realize that this is a free forum.
    You do as you please, I will do the same.
    I do not need your permission or acceptance, and vice versa.

    That simple. I do not care what others are interested in, and have no issue with them feeling the same about me.

    How do you know it turns folks away?
    I believe the traffic attracts them.
    Look at how many likes some of the posts you don't approve of have garnered. I'm not sure why you think you can direct the actions of others? Do this, don't do that...

    Live & let live.
    Simple
    Fair
    The only solution
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2021
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  24. Slick Willie

    Slick Willie Decisively Indecisive

    Location:
    sweet VA.
    But still...you know the truth...
     
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  25. Erocka2000

    Erocka2000 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY, USA
    Again, I'm not doing this to attack you or for to ask my permission for anything. I'm just saying, that you would probably garner at minimum as much interest you do on this GENERAL QUESTIONS thread in a DEDICATED TO IN-DEPTH MEASUREMENTS thread, if not even more interest, since like minded individuals will join you in your discussion.

    Even you have to admit that the measurements that have gone on for pages and pages are not what you would call "General Questions," right?
     
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