After reading this thread I went and ordered the CD and just listened for the first time. I think it is great and the cannons sound awesome! The vinyl must really be something if it is even MORE powerful!
While shopping for this CD another Telarc disc caught my eye. It is Stravinsky The Firebird by Robert Shaw and the Atlanta Symphony. It got great reviews. Can anybody recommend this album too?
I have 2 copies of the LP, one US version and the other the German pressing. I haven't played either in some time so a shootout is in order for sure. I don't recall having issues tracking with former cartridges (2m Blue/Black, Zyx R50, Grace F9E) but with all this discussion I am going to have to put the VPI to the test. Should be a good time!
What about the SACD version of the 1978 (Cincinnati Symphony) recording? SACD-60646 http://www.sa-cd.net/showtitle/2593 http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2005/Mar05/Tcahikovsky1812_SACD60646.htm (Not to be confused with the 1999 (Cincinnati Pops) recording on SACD http://www.sa-cd.net/showtitle/190)
That's a hybrid SACD. I would expect the CD layer to have the good mastering that doesn't clip during the cannon shots. It also includes two Gershwin pieces that aren't on the regular CD version.
I got this set box for LP setup, I dunno, early 80s? So, based on the title of the thread, I thought this is what we were discussing. The 1812 test has I believe 4 repeated sections of the cannon shot passage, each with increasing levels.
This is strange, It's like admitting that the VPI table (arm) cannot meet some basic requirements and rely on additional force/weight in order to track well... I had Blue and Bronze on my Technics, and they sounded best (without tracking issues) when lower VTF is applied.
Awesome! After seeing this thread yesterday I went and pulled my copy, which is the Stan Ricker cut. The cannon section looks just like this, except for a few lines made by styli after they hopped out of the wicked grooves. I haven't played my copy in years, but I remember my old Technics SL-Q200 fitted with a Grado Red couldn't get through the first blast. The main culprit was probably the Grado, which tracks like ****. I now have a VPI Classic 1 with a Sure V15VxMR, but I'm on my last NOS stylus and I don't feel the need to run an unnecessary system killer test! What's kinda funny is I once had one of those late 70s-era Panasonic dorm systems that could actually play that record. Maybe "play" is too generous, but it wouldn't fly into the next groove like my main rig would. You could actually watch the entire tonearm vibrate violently as the stylus bounced around in the grooves, and it made a horrible mess of distortion. But it made it through! The grooves on my copy are probably toast now.... dan c
I think that 45º angle is a gimmick, to make one think - wow - there's a pressing that my system can't track so I must get a better one - and buy more Telarc records. Which is sad, because Telarc vinyl is actually quite something wonderful. Except for this brief, 45º angle section piece of ****. How does the FIM reissue trace and track?
Just so any former Shure engineers that may be lurking here don't pop too many blood vessels, I have to mention that skipping is the worst form of mistracking but just playing the cannon shots without skipping doesn't mean the cartridge actually successfully tracked the passage without any mistracking distortion.
Great Scot Marty, it took precisely 31 years for a cartridge to finally track the 45 degree groove pitch on a 1984 Telarc record.
I've owned it on vinyl for years and I really like it. Unfortunately about a decade ago I'd had a few too many and fumbled while flipping it over and gave it a scratch through the last several minutes of the Firebird. It's not a rare record though so I could replace it at some point, just haven't. dan c
The 1812 is an audiophool gimmick anyway, just glorified sound FX really. I'm sure they were trying to not only one up the legendary Living Presence but also push cutting technology to its outer limits. They went overboard, but it's kind of a fun curiosity. I went through a period of buying clean Telarc LPs whenever I came across them, I've probably got about 20 of 'em. They are consistently excellent for sure. BTW, anyone know if the 1812 was ever released on Telarc's audiophile chrome cassette series? dan c
This record is well known. Do you realize that even when it stays in the groove it can not sound ad it should. My last cartridge Benz glyder tracked it with ease and at 1.7 grams. It was mounted on 401 with sme4 An oc9 on an Ittok was ok At95e on Pioneer pL L1000 was ok denon dl 304 pn naim aro was excellent, most cartridges failed even expensive Linns. My current cartridge Shure V15 mk3 does it the most convincingly and sounds absolutely superb A piece of advice from one who has been there. Don,t knock yourself out in trying to achieve tracking this record. Tracking force, sra vtf and so forth should be set by ear or, any way that works for you, and confirmed by ear. If , it upon audition tracks it , fine. If it does not , its not the end of the world. Lets put it this way. If 99 percent of records play the optimum setting as previously determined by ear, and 1 percent does not then that,s that. One does not up the settings for the odd occasional problem record. It is fun though.
Yes I ended up getting the CD and wasn't that impressed I actually enjoyed the second half more than the Stravinsky!
Exactly, kreutzbear, I owned a 2m black briefly but it was crappy at everything it played. I would keep a v15 around but now that NOS styli are hard to find if not expensive, so I do not bother.
I had this of course. The actual "test" is whether you're smart enough to turn your volume down before you blow your speakers.
I thi nk its one of those records that just embarrass some expensive set ups. Its a lateral compliance test. Some cartridges will cope. My benz glyder had no problem, my 17d2 would literally fly out the groove! In my experience, high compliance cartridges handle it easy. The true test is how realistic instruments of the orchestra sound, the little small details that others miss. Thats a proper test
My Dad bought this record in the early 80's and it was loads of fun. He was using a Dual turntable with Sure V15 Mk III cartridge that would break up during the cannon shots. Then he got a Mk IV cartridge and it tracked very well. IIRC the cannon shots had a higher frequency "pop" or "crack" at beginning followed by a massive rush of woofer-destroying bass. It was many years ago but I'll never forget that glorious sound. According to legend the blank cannon shots removed a few windows of nearby buildings during the recording session.
I've owned the original Stan Ricker Telarc pressing since it was first released. Very few systems can handle this LP. It's not just the tracking. I still have my Pioneer PL-L1000 Linear Tracking Turntable and V15 III cartridge, receiver is a VSX-1131, speakers are Klipsch RB-81 II, and the Sub-woofers are a pair of 18" Wharfedale EVP-X18B MK II pushed by a Crown XLS 1002 crossed over at 100 Hz.. The sub woofers can reproduce the the 38 Hz cannon blast fundamental at well over 120db. (Speaker efficiency is about 100db per watt with 700 watts available.) You open the windows and doors or you will be replacing a lot of glass. This LP (mine) has literally destroyed Woofers, Sub-woofers, and Amps in lesser systems (not mention windows) over the years with very few turntable / cartridge combinations able to track it at recommended weight. If it does not set the record for dynamic range, it's up there with the top 1 or 2 recordings that do. Overall orchestra quality is fair at best, but its still a fantastic LP to listen to. Consider that a 19th Century cannon blast would be about 130 db at 100 feet from the cannon, which is probably about a realistic distance from the orchestra in a real concert of the time it was written. In an open air concert, 120db cannons are probably realistic in the center of the audience. The 18" woofers actually produce the after shock which you can feel. I've read it's somewhere around 7 Hz, so it will be filtered out on a CD. While all in all this record is really something of a gimmick, it does show what good vinyl and half-speed mastering could do - over 35 years ago! Another benefit of a powerful sub-woofer system is for home theater, where gut throbbing fundamental bass is used to create realism. Large sub-woofers also seem to create more realistic Drum, Piano, and Bass sound. This is probably due to the lower Doppler distortion of a larger cone surface than the typical single 12" sub-woofer system most people have Large professional sub-woofers are really big, but when it comes to bass, big really is better.
