The Telarc 1812 test...

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by dharmabumstead, Nov 6, 2015.

  1. Dave Mac

    Dave Mac Retired Sophisticated Gentleman Of Leisure

    I've had nothing but great success and pleasure playing many, many different records on my Rega 3-24 with a Shelter 501 II moving coil cartridge. I've never done the "compliance" bit with this arm/cartridge, just rolled the dice and bought the 501 after reading so many favorable reviews and have been loving it for some time with no tracking issues whatsoever.

    Until now.

    Little Brother (mrz80) is visiting this week and we fired up my Telarc 1812 thinking, "Now, this oughta sound pretty good!" Well it did. Actually it sounded great, the mids were really natural, the bass notes went w-a-a-y down there, and that little triangle in the right channel was crystal clear. Then the damn cannons went off! I didn't actually see the cartridge jump out of the groove and [soil] itself but, man, it sure sounded like it! Thought for sure the stylus would be damaged but subsequent records play as good as ever.

    I'm not sure if there's anything I can do (besides buying the CD.) I'm tracking at 1.8 (2.0 is recommended max) and I'm not too crazy about trying again with my rig. And unlike others on the Forum my pockets aren't deep enough to go trying different TT/cartridges. My Rega/Shelter is it for the foreseeable future so I think I could live with the CD.

    Dave Mac
     
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  2. Thorensman

    Thorensman Forum Resident

    I know this record well!
    None of my Linn moving coils would handle it.
    My Dennon DL304, Benz Glyder, ATOC9 and Dynavector 10X5
    All tracked it with ease.
    You could try adjusting the Bias.
    However. , all the cartridges i tried
    Over the years , the Likes of Benz etc
    Did the job with no special set up.
    The ones that failed did NOT. Respond
    To bias adjustment , so, its mainly up to the cartridge
    As an example my Thorens TD150 TP 13 / Dynavector 10X5 does it with ease !
     
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  3. Drew769

    Drew769 Buyer of s*** I never knew I lacked

    Location:
    NJ
    My Ortofon Cadenza Black failed miserably. Have to try my VAS Nove...but then again, why abuse the poor thing?

    I’m glad it’s just the 1812 and not Dark Side Of The Moon or something like that! Lol
     
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  4. The FRiNgE

    The FRiNgE Forum Resident

    In some cases the arm resonance may be not ideal, not the best cartridge/ arm match. In another arm, the cartridges that failed may track 1812 just fine.
     
  5. Ricardo W. Pereira

    Ricardo W. Pereira New Member

    Location:
    Brazil
    I have noticed that the CD version (at least the one I have) of this Telarc 1812 recording is nothing more than a (very bad) rip of the original vinyl LP... along with MANY signs of cartridge mistracking spots on the waveforms... (at that time Soundstream 50kHz system could not be reliably transferred to 44.1 kHz format because of the bad digital to digital processors then available)
    Other early CDs from Telarc (those recordings which had been first been issued as a LP version) also show the same artifacts and very low sound quality.

    IMO Telarc was not alone in this: Sheffield Lab CDs also came from the direct cut masters or even from the very vinyl LPs... just check the wav files in an editor software.
    They (CDs) ALL sound muffled, closed, lacking definition and could NEVER had come from the alleged "simultaneous reel tapes done at the recordings sections as backups"...
    Those tapes never existed (or were lost) so defunct Sheffield (or some other company) would make large money nowadays (analog) reissuing those in a highres format (which so far were NEVER offered to music consumers AFAIK)
    Still dreaming with an authentic highres SACD or DVDA etc from "Harry James" and some other very fine Sheffield recordings sections transferred from those analog reel tapes...
     
  6. TarnishedEars

    TarnishedEars Forum Resident

    Location:
    The Seattle area
    Very few cartridges can track that LP. I purchased this LP new back when I was a kid, and I don't recall ever owning more than one cartridge (one Shure model) which could track this without a hitch. I finally stopped even trying. Although I must admit that this thread has re-awakened my curiosity about my current tonearm/cartridge combinations.

    This was never really meant to be a practical LP IMO. It was always supposed to be a system torture test, and a demonstration of digital's superior dynamic range. If actually you want to listen to this recording, I suggest listening to either the CD version or the SACD version of it.
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2018
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  7. Thorensman

    Thorensman Forum Resident

    Dynavector 10X5,
    Audio Technica OC9
    Demon DL 304
    Shure M97XE
    V15 MK3 with standard Jico Stylus
    All tracked this.
    Naim Ago
    TP13
    SME 3009
    SME 4
    Arms. Passing tracking tests on HI News
    Test record would not ensure it would track this record. Strange that 10X5 did it so easily.
     
  8. nosliw

    nosliw Delivering parcels throughout Teyvat! Meow~!

    Location:
    Ottawa, ON, Canada
    On my JVC QL-Y5F turntable, my three cartridges (Nagaoka MP-110, Ortofon 2M Bronze, and Stanton 681EEE II-S) has varying degrees of mistracking during the cannon firings (i.e., audible clipping) but never skipped at all. Out of the three cartridges, my Stanton has the least amount of mistracking.
     
  9. McLover

    McLover Senior Member

    It is superb, recommended. Easier to track than the Kunzel 1812, but still demanding. Tip about the 1812, the first cannon shot is the toughest of the lot to track, that one is a beastie (the Shure V 15 Type IV mounted on a SME III tonearm came closest in the day, or the Audio-Technica 440 ML). Both needed to be set up properly and tracked at their maximum rated vertical tracking force.
     
  10. TarnishedEars

    TarnishedEars Forum Resident

    Location:
    The Seattle area
    That is one of my all time favorite classical recordings. It sounds both spectacular, and is downright haunting in its harmonious dissonance.
     
  11. Thorensman

    Thorensman Forum Resident

    All the cartridges I mention were set to somewhere within.manufacturers
    Reccommended tracking force.
    All passed band 2 of HI - FI News
    Test record.
    No amount of setting up with other
    Cartridges that i have used made any difference. Either it will or it won,t.
    Don't bust a gut over this record.
    You will be happier thst way.
     
  12. Blue Gecko

    Blue Gecko Peace

    Location:
    Wisconsin
    I'll bump this thread with a bit of an update...

    There are many versions of Telarc CD-80041 being discussed. I believe the CDs discussed with EAC peak values of 99.9 / 66.6 / 58.6 include:
    • Japan Sony pressing with DIDZ in matrix
    • Japan Matsushita pressings with CD-80041 in matrix
    • US DADC pressings with DIDX in matrix
    I own multiple Telarc Japan Matsushita pressings, with multiple CUETools unique CD IDs (CTDB TOCID). All of them have clipping on the first track at the 99.9 peak level which resemble small mesas in Audacity. The TOC start a different positions and need to be adjusted in Audacity for comparison.

    The single Telarc US DADC pressing I own (Matrix: DIDX-001330 3; barcode 089408004124) also has 99.9 peak values for the first track. The waveforms when viewed in Audacity do NOT show the same frequency of plateaus and clipping as the Matsushita CDs--there is still some clipping, just less. The DADC CD has the new artwork on the front.

    As for the sound the Telarc US DADC pressing sounds better than the Japan Matsushita IMHO. Note and disclaimer--my current tube amp does not have enough power to reproduce the CD sound at a desirable sound level--I am shopping for a new amp. The difference between the CDs is still audible. :)
     
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  13. GuvGeek

    GuvGeek Active Member

    Location:
    Margate Florida
    I recently made a digital copy of the 1812 at a 192 sample/24 bit depth with an ASUS sound card that has over 120 db of dynamic range. It took a few tries. Analyzing the wave forms the LP has over 100 db of Dynamic Range. There are places where you can actually hear the string section finger the instruments as they begin to play with headphones on and the volume way up. This prompted me to find a CD copy and it is definitely clipped on the cannons. I read that it took Ricker 17 tries to get the Overture on to vinyl and the CD used the vinyl as the master. Since CD's of the time (early 80's) only had a 86 db Dynamic Range is clear now why the cannons are clipped. After much listening, it appears to be the Super Sonic crack of the powder or wadding as it leaves the cannon. Having heard real cannons with cannon balls the cannons did not sound like a cannon ball was used so the peak levels were probably around 130 db vice 145 or 150 db. I did notice some strange deviations in the waveforms which leads me to believe the cannon signal was bottoming out vertically and ended up being recorded as Mono. Thus by using maximum depth and not poking a hole through the vinyl, Ricker was able to use an incredible amount of horizontal deviation to get the sound on vinyl. It's LPs like the 1812 Overture that will cement Stan Ricker as the greatest Mastering Engineer in History. I'm hoping with modern digital cleaning tools that I can clean up some of the vinyl hiss and preamp noise in the quiet passages and find even more on this vinyl. I'm manually working the clicks and pops and its beginning to sound incredible. The 1812 will clearly destroy the average home entertainment system if played at a concert hall volume. My pair of 18" sub-woofers can do 13o db plus and this LP pushes them to the limit. In my sound proofed listening room where the ambient level is about 20db during the day, this album is incredible; as are may other half-speed masters. It would be interesting to see if a SACD version of the recording is better than the CD since SACD is supposed to approach 120 db Dynamic Range. At 120 db of Dynamic Range with a 192 bit sampling rate you're finally approaching the limits of the human ear if you have a quiet enough listen room. Few people have a listen room below 50 db and their entertainment system is limited to maybe a clean 110 db. That's only 60 db of dynamic range.
     
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  14. Litejazz53

    Litejazz53 Perfect Sound Through Crystal Clear Digital

    Like you, I have always been taken back by Telarc's versions of the 1812, and like you, I have both CD and vinyl, but I also have the SACD which is a Telarc Surround Disc, although I don't have surround sound set up. The SACD I have is SACD-60541.
    This recording was done on September 13, 1999 and September 22, 1998. I read all the work that went into recording this project, the height the mics were placed at, and the cannons were encircled by eight microphones. The DSD recording was done on a prototype Philips eight-channel DSD recording system. I never really saw the dynamic range they claim to have achieved on the DSD recording, but you really should get this one. While I have not dissected this recording as you have, Telarc spent untold time with several recording sessions to blend these very special and challenging effects into this recording. Of the ones I have, the SACD seems to be better than both the CD or vinyl, and my vinyl version is in pristine condition. Again, like you, I have (2) powered sub woofers, each with 18" drivers, they are robust to say the least.

    I tried to look up your system, but you have not filled your profile in. I would be interested, as others would to see what you are using in your system. I hope you secure a copy of the Telarc 1812 on SACD, I think you will be very pleased.

    Happy listening! :righton:
     
  15. formbypc

    formbypc Forum Resident

    Got it when first released, and with, as I recall, a Linn LP12, Basik Plus, and an Audio Technica AT-OC5, I didn't seem to have any problem. Made the pickup arm shake in a way I have seen no other disc do.

    But, as I heard a HiFi demonstrator say at a show a year or so later, having played it and had a listener say "So... it CAN be done" ...

    "Yes, but is it worth doing?"
     
  16. Phil Thien

    Phil Thien Forum Resident

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    I've had no problems tracking this on my DIY table/arm with a 4x7 bonded elliptical, but I'm aware there are different versions so maybe mine is the newer/easier one.
     
  17. BrentB

    BrentB Urban Angler

    Location:
    Midwestern US
    I don't even think the CD player can track some of these "digital cannons" .
     
  18. Uglyversal

    Uglyversal Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sydney
    Are you sure of this? I have the 1812 and didn't notice anything of the kind however I have a Telarc sampler CD with rumble, I always wondered whether it might have been taken from vinyl.
     
  19. formbypc

    formbypc Forum Resident

    ... are you SURE it's not simply ambient noise at the recording session? Passing traffic, underground trains, etc.
     
  20. formbypc

    formbypc Forum Resident

    I've got the original vinyl and the CD, but never got around to doing a comparison. This thread has piqued my interest.
     
  21. Ham Sandwich

    Ham Sandwich Senior Member

    Location:
    Sherwood, OR, USA
    The AD converter used to record the cannons certainly failed to track.
     
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  22. John Buchanan

    John Buchanan I'm just a headphone kind of fellow. Stax Sigma

    Yes - I suspect that the cannons clipped the A/D convertors or the microphone preamps so hard that the waveforms absolutely flattened. The Telarc CD I have doesn't sound like a vinyl rip.
     
  23. Paul_s

    Paul_s Forum Resident

    Location:
    UK
    I played the CD through a Cerwin Vega 18" Stroker and know what you mean with after shock :D My ears are still ringing after all these years.
     
  24. Uglyversal

    Uglyversal Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sydney
    No, I am not SURE, that is the reason I've said I wondered instead of "I KNOW". You must know some but it must be a very unusual recording studio for passing traffic to be heard during a recording session. Now that I think of it there could also be noise from passengers getting on and off the trains, I need to listen to it again.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2020
  25. Thorensman

    Thorensman Forum Resident

    There is nothing wrong, especially
    In regard to cartridge set up.
    I have had this record for 20 years or so.
    My Linn LP12/ ArO/ Denon DL304
    Was the first combination to track it.
    Previously, I thought the record was a joke.
    No particular care was taken in set up
    Next was my Garrard 401/ SMe 1V/ Benz
    Glyder.
    My other turntable is a TD150/SME111s/
    Shure V15 mk3.
    This tracks it superbly..
    My old OC9 mk1 on an Ittok( LP12)
    also tracked it.
    all were set at normal vtf/bias with arm
    Tube parallel to disc.
    Eaz

    Please don,t start tuning it to track those
    Cannon shots.
    It does not seem confined to high or low compliance.
    The Benz for example does not even wobble on those cannon shots!
    Failures include Dynavector 17d2,Linn Asak, Troika, Golding 1042, .
    They were satisfactory otherwise.
    I just remembered my TD150 and TP13 tone arm with DynVector 10X5 also
    Tracked this record.
     

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