The Truth About S&G "Sounds Of Silence"

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Joey_Corleone, Jul 7, 2014.

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  1. notesofachord

    notesofachord Riding down the river in an old canoe

    Location:
    Mojave Desert
    That didn't stop the Dylan box. IIRC, weren't the mono mixes recreated from the 4-track masters on a couple of the albums in that box?
     
  2. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    I'd argue "what's the point?", but regardless, it isn't like there was really much to the mixes of the first few Dylan albums.
     
  3. olsen

    olsen Senior Member

    Location:
    los angeles
    Wow. Your points ignore basic history. Sure Bob Dylan is one of a kind, but without a massive first hit his story would be very different. Ditto S&G. Theres nothing to compare with that first chart topper. And yes a station or two got the ball rolling, but that first electric single was full of magic.

    And as far as "everything else" in their career - there was no career until that single was put together. They'd broken up!

    Tough crowd.
     
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  4. xilef regnu

    xilef regnu Senior Member

    Location:
    PNW
    Found this...

     
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  5. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    The point is Meehan seems to grossly over inflate his importance in the S&G story. Did he do a good job on the mix? Sure. But everything that came before and after his involvement likely has far more to do with their success than his mix of The Sound of Silence.

    Should he be credited? Sure, if the mono mix is ever reissued I suppose. But the story reads like it's about a lot more than a sleeve credit, or lack thereof.
     
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  6. olsen

    olsen Senior Member

    Location:
    los angeles
    Point. #1 is patently ridiculous. Mixes don't matter? Really? As to point #2, Hallee was the very visible recording engineer. Mixing engineers stepped in later, often unseen. Nowadays their importance is recognized and credited . In the old they weren't AND THAT'S THE POINT.

    Sheesh.
     
  7. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Not to the extent implied in his essay, no.

    No, the point was Halee was a collaborator with the duo, Meehan was not.
     
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  8. olsen

    olsen Senior Member

    Location:
    los angeles
    I'm saying the patchwork reconstruction of that song is a major, unique work. And the mono mix came first, a strong dense sound far removed from its acoustic beginnings. And you of all people should know, the initial (hit) mix sets the template. The subsequent stereo followed that template.

    If he did the mix he deserves the propps.
     
  9. olsen

    olsen Senior Member

    Location:
    los angeles
    Hello? Exactly! Mixers came in later, unseen and often unsung. History has correctly redefined that role.

    I'll repeat that the writing hurts his case. Overcooked.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2014
  10. EdogawaRampo

    EdogawaRampo Senior Member

    Actually, since they broke on AM radio with the new, electrified The Sounds of Silence, yes, without a mono mix they would have tanked TSOS. Actually they did tank, since new electric version The Sounds of Silence was recorded quite some time after their '64 debut lp -- a record that went nowhere.

    So even if it wasn't a genius mix, it was absolutely essential in breaking them because a stereo only mix would have probably never gotten on the radio, let alone hit top 40.

    Where on earth did you get the idea "The Graduate" broke Simon and Garfunkel?

    Never heard that one before. Guess cause it's dead wrong.
     
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  11. EdogawaRampo

    EdogawaRampo Senior Member

    I noticed that too. The last Tom and Jerry record was probably released in 1960 or before.
     
  12. olsen

    olsen Senior Member

    Location:
    los angeles
    As stated earlier, The Graduate revived some earlier songs and paved the way for Mrs Robinson's big chart success. That film took their popularity from big to huge.
     
  13. EdogawaRampo

    EdogawaRampo Senior Member

    Don't know if there'd be money in it, but man some of those mono mixes sure sound good. I'd buy a mono box.

    Wednesday Morning, 3 A.M. is far, far superior in mono if you ask me, and I don't usually think acoustic albums are better in mono.

    I like The Sounds of Silence better in mono and Bookends is hands-down better in mono.

    I like Parsley, Sage, Rosemary and Thyme in mono but prefer the stereo -- too much going on to miss the separation the stereo mix gives.
     
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  14. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    The majority of the "major, unique work" was in the recording.

    As above, should he get credit if the mix is ever reissued? Sure. But suggesting that his creative input comes anywhere close to that of the others involved is silly.

    Changes in the recording process have redefined that role. At that time, mixes simply weren't that complex, and the multitracks were usually far closer to the sound of the end result than they are today. More effects were printed right to tape, and there were simply less things to change during mixing. While not the case for S&G, it wasn't uncommon for 3-track session tapes to essentially be "mixed" already; all the mixer had to do was adjust the level of the vocal in relation to the backing.

    It's also worth noting that despite all of the wrangling over the lack of a mixer credit, Roy Halee wasn't credited with engineering on the first 3 albums, and still isn't today. Sure, he's mentioned in interviews and essays, but he still isn't there in the actual credits.
     
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  15. Does anybody other than me feel that S & G's vocals sound too distant in the mono mix?
     
  16. Rfreeman

    Rfreeman Senior Member

    Location:
    Lawrenceville, NJ
    The guy who came up with the idea of adding guitar and drums deserves some credit, the guys who played the guitar and drums deserves some credit, the guy who mixed the guitar and drums overdubs to mono did his job, as many less lucky mixers could have.
     
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  17. olsen

    olsen Senior Member

    Location:
    los angeles
    Yes, and ditto Dylan's vocal in the mono LARS. And Luc you're making judgements on a mixing session you didn't attend. The levels of reverb and compression and EQ are significant decisions that had a big affect. Or so the author claims.
     
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  18. EdogawaRampo

    EdogawaRampo Senior Member

    There's a lot of echo in that one.
     
  19. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    And...you're not?
     
  20. olsen

    olsen Senior Member

    Location:
    los angeles
    I am judging the impressive result from quite humble roots, and in light of its subsequent enormous success. It speaks for itself .
     
  21. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    The complete product speaks for itself. The impact of that particular mix session is far less clear.
     
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  22. EdogawaRampo

    EdogawaRampo Senior Member

    Naw. Already huge before The Graduate. Lots 'o chart action including top singles AND lps:

    Simon & Garfunkel's debut album "Wednesday Morning, 3 A.M." is released. The album later enters the pop chart in January 1966 and rises to #30.

    1966


    The Sound Of Silence

    Simon & Garfunkel's single "The Sound Of Silence" becomes a #1 hit. The album "Sounds Of Silence" peaks at #21.

    1966


    Homeward Bound

    Simon & Garfunkel release the single "Homeward Bound" from the album "Parsley, Sage, Rosemary & Thyme." The song enters the pop singles chart in February 1966 and reaches #5.

    1966


    I Am A Rock

    Simon & Garfunkel release the single "I Am A Rock" from the album "Sounds Of Silence." The song enters the pop chart in May 1966 and peaks at #3.

    1966


    The Dangling Conversation

    Simon & Garfunkel release the single "The Dangling Conversation" from the album "Parsley, Sage, Rosemary & Thyme." The song enters the pop chart in August 1966 and peaks at #25.

    1966


    Parsley, Sage, Rosemary & Thyme

    Simon & Garfunkel release the album "Parsley, Sage, Rosemary & Thyme," which peaks at #4 on the pop albums chart.

    1966


    A Hazy Shade Of Winter

    Simon & Garfunkel release the single "A Hazy Shade Of Winter" from the album "Bookends." The song enters the pop chart in November 1966 at peaks at #13.

    1967


    At The Zoo

    Simon & Garfunkel release the single "At The Zoo" from the album "Bookends." The song enters the pop chart in March 1967 and peaks at #16.

    1967


    Fakin' It

    Simon & Garfunkel release the single "Fakin' It" from the album "Bookends," which enters the pop chart in July 1967 and peaks at #23.

    1967
     
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  23. Danby Delight

    Danby Delight Forum Resident

    Location:
    Boston
    "The Dangling Conversation" was the single from PSRT? Huh.
     
  24. EdogawaRampo

    EdogawaRampo Senior Member

    Yeah, pretty non-intuitive choice, that one.

    Note: after Homeward Bound was a big hit.
     
  25. rockledge

    rockledge Forum Resident

    Location:
    right here
    I remember this album being released and seeing it in stores, it was very popular.
    I seldom seen mono mixes. At the time Columbia was pushing stereo pretty hard.
    Stereo had become quite popular very quickly. Most large cumbersome hifi systems were being sold as stereos and mono hifis were becoming rare in furniture stores. The 60s was a booming time, a time when a lot of working class people were making a good living and buying houses, cars, and newfangled home appliances, including the latest entertainment systems.
    Also, a lot of people had those small flip open stereos.

    As far as the guy having mixed it, I don't think anyone snatched anything from him. I do think he should get credit on the ablum just out of posterity.
    But if the dude was on a salary and that was his agreed on compensation, then he knew what the deal was when he did the job.
     
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