The Ultimate Black Sabbath Creative Sounds Compact Disc Thread

I've long suspected that story to be untrue.

Why pay someone to do all that work when CS licensed from Dorchester Holding, which I believe was owned by Patrick Meehan?

The timeframe also makes no sense. Even if somehow, someway, Meehan couldn't send copies of his tapes for a US licensing agreement (seems illogical since he was presumably able to make the agreement), I would think the US CS releases would have been mastered from CDs out by then.

 

You've got a point there! On the other hand, that would not be the only strange thing about the CS releases, would it? Why do different CS releases of the same album often sound so different in the first place, even when, for example, both releases are from the US? Thus, for MOR, there are already three US releases listed above, each with totally different peak levels. So did they do completely fresh masterings, and/or fresh (and very different) tape transfers, again and again? And wouldn't that be a lot of totally unnecessary work too? I fully agree with you that using LP-rips as sources when one owns the master tapes doesn't exactly make a lot of sense. It's just that all the differences between those multiple CS releases, both in terms of sound and in terms of catalog numbers and matrix numbers, don't seem to make much sense anyway.

 

Well, this is all guesswork, but it just makes zero sense to me that you would have some guy splicing tapes from LP rips.

Sheesh, if for some reason Meehan was worried about using CD audio from Polygram, Warner or Castle that could be traced, CS could have had the guy just use cassettes.

Maybe there was one album where this was done, who knows...but the idea that this was done for the whole catalog seems a real stretch to me. No amount of tape splicing could hide vinyl sourcing even from a Mint LP.

Even just listening to some CS CDs on headphones would make vinyl sourcing obvious.

 

I am pretty sure you're right. It was mainly the amateurish/piratish character of the CS releases that made me believe that the vinyl-rip claim could be correct. Plus, why would anyone make up a story like that? But of course people make up stories of all kind for all kinds of reason. It could simply be someone who wants people to buy the band-sanctioned official releases rather then some OOP CS. Who knows...

 

OK, here's more:

For the following release already listed above of the 1st, s/t album,

I have the same peak levels (and matrix#), but a little additional information:
6006, USA, black


For the following one listed above for the 1st album,

I actually get a slightly different peak level value for the first song:
01 99,9 [674D6505] [DA379A6B]
02 89,8 [4E01ACC2] [B58DF42C]
03 85,0 [ADAF10A6] [A5B5EF92]
04 92,3 [9E91C667] [6267A9AE]
05 89,8 [21C3FBB3] [446BA953]

Release information and matrix# is identical.


I have yet one more release of the 1st album:

6006-2, USA, black
Matrix: 6006-2
01 100,0 [BDE6C45B] [92F2C8C2]
02 89,8 [C841DD52] [F91C1D4F]
03 85,0 [402D5173] [7F9A0908]
04 92,3 [F2CE3EAD] [2CF16540]
05 89,8 [9406E9B3] [1ED17FFA]


And for Paranoid:

6007-2, USA, black
Matrix: 6007-2
01 100,0 [F2ABF257] [79B0D47B]
02 100,0 [437C8DC8] [BA5852C3]
03 92,0 [CBE9AE94] [E11BB4DC]
04 93,3 [6394EECA] [B61C5C0D]
05 100,0 [75478618] [52535340]
06 100,0 [53A039C4] [F468E93E]
07 100,0 [09832B99] [E572A1DE]
08 78,0 [B7998449] [B356A756]


Master of Reality:

6004, USA, black
Matrix: NEL CD 6004 SRC=01
01 92,0 [1149AAAF] [E8C98F09]
02 81,3 [3BEC727B] [799EB463]
03 55,6 [23979B8A] [5B32C2D5]
04 94,3 [5F781D98] [4B1BE60B]
05 61,9 [D037D611] [74222A3E]
06 93,2 [D1A5533D] [130DC1A4]
07 43,6 [B2F14744] [C75E568E]
08 89,8 [17CD3E85] [D1B6CDE5]
09 98,6 [4A2ED75D] [13839790]


To be continued ASAP... ;-)

 

Another one:

Children Of The Grave

Peak levels: 65.4/49.4/68.3/38.5/60.8/71.9/70.9/59.1/55/59.1/60.7
for the following disc:

PS-SR 6011-2, Power Sound 2001, Germany 1996, black
Matrix: 0E5D5 < 530 > PSNEMS60112

 

Sabbath Bloody Sabbath

Peak levels: 89.0/100/57.0/93.1/100/88.0/99.9/100
for the following disc:

6005, USA, red
Matrix: 3A 11517 BZ (6005)-2 SRC=3

Peak levels: 81.7/84.3/59.0/84.2/82.9/84.5/83.5/85.4
for the following disc:

6005-02, USA, black
Matrix: 6005-2

 

I had a 2 CD 'We Sold Our Soul' Creative Sounds which was a vinyl rip. But I've heard a number of Creative Sounds discs and that was the only one which was a vinyl rip. My guess for this one is that they didn't have a tape of this compilation and were too lazy to piece one together themselves from the album tapes.

 

Sabotage

Peak levels: 86.3/20.8/91.6/91.2/87/59.3/96.4/84.3
for the following disc:

6003, USA, red
Matrix: 6003 (11515 AZ) SRC+01

 

Funnily enough I'm actually listening to the Creative Sounds 'Live At Last' right now, and I hear none of the extraneous noise commonly associated with needledrops. It sounds like a tape source to me.

 

Live At Last

Peak levels: 95.1/89.1/77.4/68.5/86.6/65.3/93.7/97.8/97.8
for the following disc:

6001-02, Germany, black
Has the following number printed on disc: CSL/NEMS 449800-2
Matrix: PILZ CD 449800-2 [ K 30550 B ]

Peak levels: 97.2/91.0/79.1/70.0/88.5/66.7/95.8/100.0/100.0
for the following disc:

6001, USA, red
Has the following number printed on disc: CSL/NEMS 6001
Matrix: 13S 10749 AZ

Thanks for the info. Have the peak values of your disc already been listed above?

 

We Sold Our Soul For Rock 'n Roll

Peak levels disc 1: 96.4/99.2/99.2/99.0/99.1/94.5/88.6
Peak levels disc 2: 99.2/99.0/87.0/99.2/99.2/99.1/99.2/63.9/99.2/96.8

for the following 2xCD:

CD 8001, USA 1987, black
1987 USA_2CD_CD 8001 Creative Sounds
Has the following number printed on both discs: CSL NEMS 8001
Matrix disc 1: CSL/NEMS 8001-1 SRC-01
Matrix disc 2: CSL/NEMS 8001-2 SRC=01

 

I can't check the peaks right now but it's USA release listed above, so likely the same.

 

If you have Past Times you don't need Live at Last , right ?

 

Content-wise, you don't need it. But Past Lives has a terrible brickwalled mastering. I like the '96 best sound-wise.

 

Thanks for the info!

You made me curious. I just checked, and I found the following DR values for the 3 releases of Past Lives that I have:

Past Lives (2002 USA 06076-84561-2 Divine) DR7+DR8
Past Lives (2003 Japan VICP-62203+4 Victor) DR11+DR7
Past Lives (2010 Germany 2749907 Sanctuary) DR7+DR7

... which would seem to suggest that disc 1 (which is the Live at Last album) of the Japan release of Past Lives is not brickwalled.

I don't have the time to listen right now, but the DR and peak values are very similar to the 1996 Castle - suggesting that the Japan Past Lives disc 1 MIGHT be more or less a copy of the 1996 UK Castle:

 

Past Lives appeared to been the '96 mastering subjected to brick walling. I'm guessing the Japan cd uses the '96 without further tweaking.

 

It's called Past Lives, btw. ;-) Please note that disc 2 might also be considered more or less redundant now. That's because it consists of (incomplete parts of) two great shows, Brussels 1970 (back then still mislabelled as Paris 1970) and Asbury Park 1975, both of which are available completely and in superb quality: Brussels 1970 officially, as disc 4 of this release, and Asbury Park unofficially, both on commercial bootlegs (see here for some of them) and many free internet downloads. I always found it annoying how they cut both shows short for Past Lives and mixed them up even though one was a small club show and the other one a much bigger show so the crowd noise goes up and down very strangely between both on Past Lives.

 

I just ended up getting a copy of the German Black Live at Last how does that disc stack up against other pressings?

 

The castle 1996 disc you like best for Live at Last?
Is it really that good?

 

Yes, that's the one I like best. I'm not sure if it uses a better source than the other CDs or I just like what they did in mastering (incidentally, I don't care much for any of the other '96 discs - I recall maybe Sabotage being ok, though). The '96 is missing the spoken introduction of the band, but that doesn't bother me. The Castle '86 and a Creative Sounds (I don't recall which now) also sounded good to me, but I didn't like them as much as the '96. This isn't the best recording, but to me, it sounds like the '96 gets something right about the sound. Seems more focussed and clearer vocals, whereas the others might seem more natural but kind of distant and they bring attention to the less than stellar recording quality. So I'm thinking either the '96 uses a better source or it adds compression to just the right degree to make it sound better to me. I normally want the mastering with less compression, but in some cases, like with a recording like this, it might make it sound better to me.

 

Rnranimal recommended it to me too a while ago, and I was surprised, because most of the 1996 Castles are horrible, but I tried and I can confirm the LaL is good (for my taste, of course). But I have not yet found the time to do extended comparisons. I have tried several releases at different times, and I am pretty sure that LaL is one of those albums where even the best available CD release is still not entirely satisfying.

 

Ok thanks for the feedback on this disc.
I just got the Creative disc it sounds pretty good.
I had a few Castle 96 cds sold them off!!!!
S/T, Paranoid and Born Again

 

I think you did the right thing.

 

OK, I have just integrated all my previously posted releases with peak values into the main list. I hope I didn't mess up anything. (I only just noted that bonus track information was included in the list for some releases; I didn't check my additions for bonus track info, sorry. Should usually be deducible from the other information given though.)


Disc Information:

Black Sabbath

Peak levels: 100/89.8/85/92.3/89.8
for the following 4 discs:

449805-2, Germany, black (Note: this one was posted by S. P. Honeybunch; blacksabbathrainbow got a slightly different peak value for the 1st track, 99.9. See below.)
Matrix: PILZ CD 449805-2 103

6006, USA, red
Matrix: W. O. # H9556-1 11518AZ 6006

6006-2, USA, black
Matrix: 6006-2

6006-2, Power Sound 2001, black
Matrix: ADFL 02VH4<530> 8413 IFPI DG22 6006-2

Peak levels: 99.9/89.8/85/92.3/89.8
for the following disc:

449805-2, Germany, black (Note: this one was posted by blacksabbathrainbow; S. P. Honeybunch got a slightly different peak value for the 1st track, 100. See above.)
Matrix: PILZ CD 449805-2 103

Peak levels: 99.3/87.2/83.1/85.2/85.8
for the following disc:

6006, USA, black
Matrix: INTER SERVICE PRESSE DIGIP 6006


Paranoid

Peak levels: 100/100/92.0/93.3/100/100/100/78.0
for the following 4 discs:

449806-2, Germany, black
Matrix: 449806-2

6007-2
Matrix: Made In Israel PS-6007-2 A2 <3110456>

6007-2, USA, black
Matrix: 6007-2

6007, USA, red
Matrix: 6007 (11519 AZ) SRC+01

Peak levels: 98.1/96.9/88.0/90.6/97.1/96.7/97.1/75.3
for the following disc:

6007, Holland, red
Matrix: CDM CA ZZ 01/6007 01 @

Peak levels: 87.5/81.2/73.2/81.8/74.3/97.4/65.9/84.6/86.7
for the following disc:

6007, USA, black
Matrix: NEL CD 6003 SRC=01
includes "Wicked World" live as bonus track.


Master Of Reality

Peak levels: 92/81.3/94.3/47.3/61.9/93.2/43.6/89.8/98.6
for the following disc:

6004, USA, black
Matrix: SRC-01 NELCD6004

Peak levels: 92/81.3/55.6/94.3/61.9/93.2/43.6/89.8/98.6
for the following disc:

6004, USA, black
Matrix: NEL CD 6004 SRC=01

Peak levels: 74.4/77.9/40.5/81.6/47.2/88.9/84.1/66.9
for the following 3 discs:

6004, USA, red
Matrix: 6004 (11516 AZ) SRC=01

6004-2
Matrix: PS-6004-2NS 3112697 IFPI DG22

449803-2
Matrix: PILZ CD 449803-2 103

Peak Levels: 67.1/71.6/40.1/76.5/48.7/77.2/78.9/64.8
for the following disc:

6004, USA, black
Matrix: MANUFACTURED BY AMERICAN HELIX 1/1C1099A00440 W.O. # E8007-1


Children Of The Grave

Peak levels: 87.1/49.4/68.3/38.5/60.8/71.9/99.5/59.1/55/59.1/60.7
for the following disc:

6011-2
Matrix: ADFL 0ABU4<530>60112

Peak levels: 65.4/49.4/68.3/38.5/60.8/71.9/70.9/59.1/55/59.1/60.7
for the following 3 discs:

449807-2, Germany, black
Matrix: PILZ CD 449807-2 [K 30546 A]

6011-2, Germany
Matrix: PILZ CD

PS-SR 6011-2, Power Sound 2001, Germany 1996, black
Matrix: 0E5D5 < 530 > PSNEMS60112

Peak levels: 66.9/50.5/69.8/39.3/62.1/73.5/72.4/60.4/56.2/60.5/62.0
for the following 2 discs:

6011, USA
Matrix: manufactured by American Helix

Creative Sounds 6011, made in USA
Disc inner ring : 12268 AZ CD-6011 SA12506
Back cover barcode: 0 16726-6011-4 8


Sabbath Bloody Sabbath

Peak levels: 89.0/100/57.0/93.1/100/88.0/99.9/100
for the following 2 discs:

Creative Sound 6005, made in USA
Disc inner ring: 6005 (11517 AZ) SRC=01
Back cover barcode: 0 16726-6005-2 3

6005, USA, red
Matrix: 3A 11517 BZ (6005)-2 SRC=3

Peak levels: 87.1/97.8/55.8/91.1/97.8/86.1/97.7/97.8
for the following disc:

449804-2, Germany, Black (discogs number=5285071)
Matrix: PILZ CD 449804-2 [K 30551 A]

Peak levels: 81.7/84.3/59.0/84.2/82.9/84.5/83.5/85.4
for the following disc:

6005-02, USA, black
Matrix: 6005-2


We Sold Our Soul For Rock 'n Roll
(Note blacksabbathrainbow: There are about a billion different CS releases of this compilation out there.)

Peak levels disc 1: 96.4/99.2/99.2/99.0/99.1/94.5/88.6
Peak levels disc 2: 99.2/99.0/87.0/99.2/99.2/99.1/99.2/63.9/99.2/96.8

for the following 2xCD:

CD 8001, USA 1987, black
Has the following number printed on both discs: CSL NEMS 8001
Matrix disc 1: CSL/NEMS 8001-1 SRC-01
Matrix disc 2: CSL/NEMS 8001-2 SRC=01


Sabotage

Peak levels: 86.3/37.3/91.6/91.2/87/59.3/96.4/84.3
for the following disc:

449802-2, Germany, black
Matrix: PILZ CD 449802-2 103

Sabotage

Peak levels: 86.3/20.8/91.6/91.2/87/59.3/96.4/84.3
for the following disc:

6003, USA, red
Matrix: 6003 (11515 AZ) SRC+01


Greatest Hits

Peak levels: 99.2/81.4/86.7/99.2/99.2/99.2/92.0/61.8/97.8/99.2
for the following disc:

Matrix: CSL/EMS 6002 SRC=01


Live At Last

Peak levels: 95.1/89.1/77.4/68.5/86.6/65.3/93.7/97.8/97.8
for the following 2 discs:

PS NEMS 6001-2, black
Matrix: MADE IN ISRAEL PS-6001-2 A2 <3110450>

6001-02, Germany, black
Has the following number printed on disc: CSL/NEMS 449800-2
Matrix: PILZ CD 449800-2 [ K 30550 B ]

Peak Levels 96.7/87.1/77.4/68.4/88.2/67.9/94.9/99.6/99.7
for the following disc:

1987
CSL/NEMS 6001, red
Made in USA
Matrix: Technidisc #294-127-002-B 12/30/87J "BLACK SABBATH" "LIVE AT LAST"

Peak levels: 97.2/91.0/79.1/70.0/88.5/66.7/95.8/100.0/100.0
for the following disc:

6001, USA, red
Has the following number printed on disc: CSL/NEMS 6001
Matrix: 13S 10749 AZ