I am working on my process a bit. I am experimenting with a solid soak in AudioIntelligent #15, then a hard time with tap water, pat dry, and then into the AudioDesk Pro. Pondering if I should replace the tap rinse after AudioIntelligent with a vacuum machine to really pull out the crud? The reason is that I want to loosen up or remove mold deep in grooves before the AudioDesk? Thoughts?
Done it various ways. Usually agitated wash with #15, vacuum, rinse, vacuum, then into the US machine. If you want to give the record one more pass, it might be to rinse with pure water (at least distilled or D/I) and vacuum. Sometimes, for albums that needed help, I did multiple passes, including US then vacuum dry. Not as easy to do with the AD since it really isn't designed for wash only. (I had several ADs back in the day and think I remember you can increase wash time, but can't adjust or reduce dry time, am I right?) Experiment a little. I think the multi-method combined with a rinse stage is in general what you are after. The tap water thing is obviously a step before a pure water rinse in all events. I think @antinn liked the shearing effect of the water coming out of the tap, but may be wrong.
Hi everyone, I joined the Ultrasonic vinyl cleaners club today, and even though I like the results, I'm not sure it's for me. I bought a (barely) used unit last week and then read through the entire thread so I would at least know the basics.. Up till now I have cleaned my modest collection (about 1000 albums) using the Okki Nokki Record Cleaning Machine, which was a major step up from the Knosti and was pretty happy with the machine, but as always there were records (new and used) I couldn't get really clean and was always intrigued by the US machines. The previous owner bought it new, added an aquarium pump and made cork spacers to replace the rubber ones, but he didn't like the fact that he had to dry the records afterwards and bought a (much more expensive) all in one US machine. So I did my first test run today, it's a basic machine with a 6L tank coupled to a 10L aquarium pump/filter system. I cleaned 8 records which took me the best part of two hours...so maybe I'm doing something wrong. I had pre-mixed 10L of formulae, using the wisdom found in this thread and put 4.5L in the machine and 5.5L in the pump. Then hooked up the intake and outlet hoses to the pump/filter and found that already I was struggling for space. Took about 20 minutes to get the heat up to 30C and then I let the machine clean for 10 minutes. While I was cleaning I turned on the pump/filter so the water was constantly going in and out the closed loop, but a by-result was that the temp went down during the cycle because of the colder water from the pump coming into the tank, so most of the time the temperature was around 22-23C. Did I make a mistake here, am I supposed to not turn the filter/pump on during the cleaning cycle and only turn the pump on (for 5-10 minutes ?) after I've removed the records ? After the clean, I took the 4 records off and vacuumed them dry with a custom build lazy Susan and a Vinyl Vac wand attached to a shop-vac and put them in new sleeves..first hour gone. I then wanted to to wash the second batch of 4 records, but the temp had dropped to 21C and it took another 15-20 minutes to get it up to 30C (again with the pump/filter running) I though about putting the lid on the the tank, but alas I couldn't due to one of the hoses from the pump/filter. Washed and dried the second batch and then it was time to put everything away again as due to space constraint I can't leave everything out, so I will have to build up and tear down each time I use the machine. And this is where the fun starts, even though I took the greatest care in decoupling the pump/filter from the Ultrasonic machine, I got water every where, I needed an extra pair of hands just to stop the excess water that was in the two hoses to go every where, seeing both hoses are about 2 ft each and pretty sturdy it wasn't easy and in the end I needed a change of clothes and had to mop and clean the floor, parts of the furniture and even a wall The results were good, 4 new albums play great (but as they were still in shrink before I have no idea if they were improved) and three of my four more problematic albums sounded a lot better, much less ticks and noise than before (even after multiple cleans on my other machine). My MOFI Dire Straits Making Movies still has a tick at the beginning of side B, just as it did when I played it for the first time last week and after two cycles in my Okki Nokki machine. I was hoping the US would take care of it, as it's basically a new record and has no visible marks at all...but alas I never considered how much space this would all take, and the hassle of coupling and decoupling the pump and am not sure I want to go through all this each time I want to clean some records. I'm seriously considering leaving the pump out of the equation as it seems to be biggest hurdle. And am thinking about just draining the tank after I use it and letting the mixture pass through one or two Militta coffee filters and then back in the container for a next use, and then after 40-50 records make up a new batch. Would this work ? Any insight, tips or general mockery about all the newb mistakes I made more than welcome
You have provided a lot info, but very few details; so we need the following: -What is the exact cleaning formula you are using? -What is the US nameplate data - so one can figure out the US tank frequency and power. When you said it took 20 min to heat to 30C, does the tank have a heater or was this with the ultrasonics on? Did you degas the solution - the US tank may have this feature otherwise you operate the ultrasonics with tank full of cleaning solution (no records) for about 5 min to drive off gases that are in the solution that will otherwise absorb the sonic energy. In general do not get too hung up on temperature - yes you get better performance at 30C, but the difference between 23C (it must be cold in Belgium) is not huge. -What is the speed (rpm) of the record spinner and if adjustable - what is the rpm range? -What is the aquarium pump/filter nameplate data so one can figure out what is the pump flowrate & the filter rating and does the unit contain is 5.5 L or 1o L. Either way thats a pretty large unit, and no aquarium filter I am familiar with filters smaller than 50 mcirons which is not as good as a good quality paper coffee filter which is about 20 microns. Also, depending on the flowrate if too high it will affect (reduce) the cavitation intensity of the tank. In the mean time if you read this article and then download the book (its free) Precision Aqueous Cleaning of Vinyl Records-2nd Edition - The Vinyl Press, and read particularly Chapter XIV which details ultrasonic cleaning machines it should give you some insight on how to approach your unit. Note that with your Okki Nokki vacuum RCM and your US, you could put together a nice pre-clean, final clean process.
Thanks for the reply @pacvr I'll try to see what I can dig up and will delve into the book you recommended I'm using the following formula 10L demineralised wter 20CL 99.9% Isopropyl alcohol 0.25 CL Ilford ILFOTOL wetting agent Anyway, the US is the Polish made Arc-O2 which has an automatic drive and heating. audiorevita ultrasonic device Power 180-200W Power supply 230V ~ 50/60Hz Ultrasonic frequency~ 40KHz Engine speed- 2,5 r/min. (fixed) The manual doesn't mention degassing, but I did do it as I read it here, so while warming up the water I turned on the ultrasonic for about 10 minutes, figuring this would degas the solution. After about 10 minutes I turned off the ultrasonic and waited another 10 minutes for the water to heat up. Pump/filter was on at this moment, so new water was introduced the whole time. And yes it's pretty nippy here at the moment, it's noon right now and only 7°C The aquarium pump/filter is probably a local brand called "Superfish X-pro 1000" Like the US it's almost brand new, rated for aquaria up to 250L and costs about $100. Specs : Flow 1050L/h Filter volume 9L Power 20Watt weight (filled) 34 lbs Like I said, it's pretty big and unwieldy, plus a PITA to hook up and uncouple so I would rather do without. It also takes up so much space I have nowhere to put my Okki Nokki vacuum RCM, so my plan of using it after using the US is null and void. I never have really dirty vinyl as I tend to mainly buy new albums, Japanese pressings and try not to buy less than NM albums, I don't go around to goodwill shops or garage sales any more like I did 20 years ago. Almost all the vinyl I get in is rather clean or new. And my entire collection has all been washed on at least two different machines.
Some info for you nlw and I will follow-up later with some more: First ditch the filter for use during cleaning - its way to much flow for that tank (but save it - will discuss later). With the rotation at 2.5 rpm and the filter/pump running SF_X-Pro_Manual.pdf (aquadistri.com) you are getting essentially no cavitation - details Chapter XIV. Prepare your formula for the 6 L US tank as follows: ~2.5% IPA = (6000 mL)(0.025) = 150 mL (of 99% or better; it less - See Chapter VIII.8.7) ~ILFORD ILFOTOL at 0.125% = (6000 mL)(0.00125) = 7.5 mL. For best cleaning using 2.5 rpm with a 6L tank clean only one record; max of 2 records - with 2 records you will reduce the amount of cavitation intensity. After US cleaning, move to your vacuum RCM and rinse with DIW and dry. I will follow up some thoughts on using the filter/pump to recycle the US tank.
My process is a Spin Cleaner as a pre clean step to remove surface and loose dirt, while wetting deeply embedded dirt. Then onto a 3 LP Vinyl Spinner and a US bath in a diy Chinese tank. I use "Rushton's" formula which is combination of Tergitol, Triton 100, 91%+ isopropyl and distilled water. 0.33 RPM for 15 min @ 30' C / 5 total revolutions // I degass for 15 prior. Then a rinse, and a Nitty Gritty Vac dry I generally clean about 20-25 LPs in a cleaning session. At the end there is considerable dirt in the bottom of the SC tank, and a surprising amount of effluent in the bottom of the US tank. When draining and most of the water is removed, the effluent looks a lot like fine mud or river silt. It is dark, and it will stain anything it comes into contact with. I know that many use filters and filtering systems in their US tanks, but given what is left in my tank, I can not imagine that a filter would remove all of the effluent. Or if a filter can remove the sludge, the filter itself will have to be replaced. It is easier and gives greater peace of mind to discard the tank contents then start with a new tank full of solution for each cleaning session. I bring all of this up because of a previous discussion about residue and filtering. Given what can come off old dirty LPs, I wonder if filtering is just making people feel better instead of removing all effluent from the water tank ? That said, my results are worth the effort- amazing to hear 50-60yr old LPs that have been through who knows what, now exhibit silent backgrounds with a noise floor lower than that of my system. BEFORE I constructed my US tank- many LPs still had a low level of background grunge or noise that sounded like "shhhhoooossshhh". It did not overwhelm content, but it was still there. AFTER US this sound is gone. I think that over time a micro layer of dirt etc becomes bonded to LP grooves,, particularly the very sharp edges of content. US cleaning removes this micro layer. I hear much greater transient response, more ambient cues, greater HF extension particularly overtones of brass and string instruments- and a noise floor that can be lower than the noise floor of my system. I can hear a tape trail off into silence, or trail off to an abrupt end when the engineer cut the gain. US has become a critical step in ensuring LPs are as clean as possible. Rushton's formula, which does include IPA: Note the amount of alcohol. "As the chemist in that AudioKharma thread has recommended, I'm finding it useful to premix the Tergitols with some alcohol and to make up enough in advance for several US tank refills. In my case, I'm making up a 4 oz bottle's worth of solution (about 118 ml) that will give me enough concentrated mix for four 2-gallon US tanks when I add the additional alcohol as part of setting up the tank. In milliliters this solution is: 40.00 ml Tergitol 30.00 ml Hepastat 256 48.00 ml Isopropyl to top out the bottle at 118 ml 118.00 ml total as a base solution This combination neatly fits into one the those readily available 4 oz (118 ml) blue storage jars and is enough to mix up four 2-gallon US tanks using 29.5 ml of the combination per tank and then adding another 400 ml of 91% isopropyl to each tank to reach the 5% alcohol concentration." IE- divide the above quantities by 4 to determine the amount needed for a 2 gallon US tank. Ultrasonic Cleaning (positive-feedback.com)
What Tergitols are you using? There are three different variations you can buy in the US - Tergitol 15-S-3 that is not water soluble; Tergitol 15-S-9 which is water soluble and then Tergikleen which is a 50:50 mix of Tergitol 15-S-3 + 15-S-9. Tergitol 15-S-9 is the improved replacement to Triton X100 which as an environmental and has been phased out in EU/UK, and here in the US is just a matter of time. Note that Tergitol 15-S-9 is essentially the same as Triton X100 except it has a lower critical micelle concentration (52 ppm vs 189 ppm) so you would need less 15-S-9 to get the same surface tension and cleaning as X100; and 15-S-9 mixes with water much easier/faster. But, there would be no benefit from mixing 15-S-9 with Triton X100. The debris/mud you are seeing is very unusual; do you use your DIY cleaner in the SpinClean or their cleaner. The SpinClean cleaner has a flocculant that essentially collects soil and settles it the bottom to prevent redeposit. If you are using the SpinClean solution then you may be seeing carryover. If you using Tergitol 15-S-3 then this which is not water soluble can contribute to the 'sludge' you are seeing on the bottom of the tank. Also, keep in mind that Hepastat is a combination of mostly the following: HEPASTAT™-256 (~20% Quats + 8% NID + 10% Na2SiO3/EDTA). But if using only 7.5 mL per 7500 mL (2 gal US) = 1:1000 dilution so this is what you actual get = 200 ppm Quats + 80 ppm NID + 100 ppm Na2SiO3/EDTA. The 10 mL of Tergitol per 7500 mL = 1,333 ppm - which is about right for X100 but this high concentration may contribute to the sludge you see. If you were using 15-S-9 you only need about 250 ppm (0.025%). You can filter out what you are seeing - a few people are using 10" 0.2 micron absolute filters with positive displacement pumps and these filters can last quite a long time and 0.2 micron absolute can remove bacteria so the US tank solution can last for a number of weeks. The book I referenced above includes all the info above if you wish to explore further. The chemistry is discussed Chapter VIII and the filter/pump Chapter XIV.
Reading the aquarium filter manual SF_X-Pro_Manual.pdf (aquadistri.com) it says the following: "The aquarium water travels through the filter media from the bottom moving to the top." So, for the filter to work with the pump - the filter needs to be maintained full; and this is not practical especially since its volume is 8.5 L. What you 'could' try is removing the filter top parts 1 to 7, and using the media stack to filter the solution. Install a valve on the US tank drain (if it does not one - looks like it does) and attach hose and place filter cannister below and let the US tank drain down the cleaning solution and filter it from top down - the filter media its self is not direction (they are just pads) so this 'may' work and the the cannister may be large enough to contain the 6L tank volume (or most of it). After filtering then remove the media stack part 9, and pour the 'filtered' contents back in the US tank or you could store the cleaner solution in the cannister - experiment - see what may work. If the media stack has a carbon filter - remove that, it may filter out the ILFORD surfactant. Also, if you read Chapter VIII.6 you will see that the ILFORD has a biocide. Of course you could always just sell the aquarium filter - or whatever. Note for dirty records - you can use your vacuum RCM for pre-clean, but make sure you rinse with DIW - but you do not want to fully dry - just move to your US and this is addressed Chapter XIV.9. Hope this is of some help.
Thanks. You have been a great help and given me inspiration to muck about with the filter. I got the aquarium filter free with the US, so I have no qualms cannibalising it for parts or experiments, or even giving it away. I’m somewhat relieved that my first impression of the pump/filter being too big and unwieldy and not really a good fit for the US is correct. I did another cleaning today, two records at a time instead of 5, spread equally, and warmed up the US to 30C before starting. Didn’t use the pump at all. After a 10 minute wash I vacuum dried the records and the annoying tick that was on a Dire Straits MoFi album is gone...which delighted me to no end. I left the solution in the tank as I will be cleaning more tomorrow. After that I’ll use a new batch of cleaning fluid, adjusting it a little to,the specifications you suggested and will experiment to achieve a better and more effective filtering method. But I might keep it simple as I rarely if ever have records one could consider dirty. My back will also be happy that I don’t have to lug that monster of a pump around any more.
Hmm...maybe he has something new now because what AudioDesk and KLAudio offer is not what ive seen in his videos. The one has has can do what looks like 4 or 5 records at a time.
Man, I never knew record cleaning was so intense and extensive. Not knocking it, just seems like a bunch of work though.
It is the best way to not only get the quietest playback but to also prevent debris from getting on your needle.
KL Audio once offered a Automatic Disc Loader Automatic Disc Loader for Record Cleaning Machine (klaudio.com).
Ahhh so thats what I'm thinking of! I appreciate the info. So it is a KLAudio machine with a record loader. Thank you
I have used AudioDesk US cleaner for a few years and generally been happy, although occasional water on discs after drying seems to be a fact of life. I use distilled water and AD cleaning fluid per instructions. I replace water/fluid every 100 washes and replace rollers and filter every 500 washes. But now I'm having a crazy problem and nothing I have tried resolves it. I've scoured the internet for ideas and read all 25 pages of this thread. Here is my tale of woe, and all suggestions welcome! During wash cycle, the AD generates much more foam than I've seen in the past. It builds up above the rollers leaving a lot of liquid on the smooth vinyl transiti0n between last song on each side and label, and a little on the label. The foam also gets under the black wiper blade area. When the dry cycle starts, all the foam under the black wiper blade area gets blown onto the labels, and onto my bookshelf standing behind the unit. When this started happening, I assumed that a contaminant must have gotten in from a used record. I rinsed the heck out of the unit with several bottles of distilled water and put in new rollers and filter. But this didn't help and the problem continued. I repeated this process again (including another new set of rollers and filter). Then I added water only (no cleaning fluid) and ran an empty cycle with no record, and there was no foam. Then I added the cleaning fluid, and the foam problem was back. I don't know what to try next to trouble shoot this. Any ideas? Thanks!
The current direction that is repeated by many sites is to prepare the AD solution one-bottle per 1-gallon water. However, 1-gallon can be US (imperial) = 3785 mL, but UK (metric) = 4564 mL which is what AD actually says - Ultra Systems Audio Desk Systeme. So, if you mixed 1-bottle to US gallon the solution is too concentrated. Dilute the solution by adding ~20% water or add (4564 - 3785) = 779 mL, round up to 800 mL or 27 ounces. You do not need to be perfect, more dilute is better and AD 'may' have changed the formulation/ingredients of their cleaning solution. If this does not fix the problem, then there 'may' be a problem with the system pump. It may be running too long or it may be worn causing excessive cavitation that will cause the cleaning solution to foam.
Thank you pacvr, this makes a lot of sense. I also emailed the manufacturer yesterday and they replied promptly. Their response was, "If you say that there is no foam formation without a cleaning concentrate, then it is definitely because of the cleaning concentrate. The mixing ratio is probably not right there, which then leads to the formation of foam." This lines right up with your response. I will reach out to my dealer to see about a changed formulation, and pay close attention to the proportions. I really appreciate the help!
Well if you've been cleaning some hundreds of records and haven't changed how you mix the fluid, and Audio Desk hasn't changed their formulation, then it has to be something else, no?
Good point. I've been scratching my head on that, too. But I realize that I have been getting the proportions wrong for years, I've always added one bottle of cleaning concentrate to a gallon of water. So I think my next move is to see if there is a new formulation and add one bottle to 4.5 liters. If I don't have any foam problems after that, I'm happy even if I can't explain why it didn't come up until now.
With the 2019 version of the Audiodesk Vinyl cleaner, has anyone ever noticed the coloured lights that appear inside the cleaner? (on the right hand side under the wiper blades). I’ve seen them there in the past and always assumed they were something to do with the ultrasonic cleaning. However, cleaning some records today, I noticed that they had disappeared...or at least weren’t turning on! Has anyone else seen these lights inside their machine? Do you know what they mean? I asked this question in a separate thread (apologies, I wasn’t aware of this one!) and a kind gentleman replied that he hadn’t seen any lights on his older AD machine. Is that the same with anyone else?
For what it's worth, when I had an AD, I used far less than a full bottle. It wasn't because I was cheap, but there were some people who had complained about foaming in the early models- and to minimize the amount of chemical residue on the record, some early adopters had reduced the amount of fluid used. I adopted that approach as well and the overall operation and cleaning capability of the units I had (early model, not the Pro or latest version now offered) were not affected as far as I could tell. Less may be more.
