Measuring water with a thermometer, once my (Kirmuss) tank gets above 30C+ I often see warping with thinner records. Once removed they settle back to shape rapidly. I now aim to wash the thinner records earlier in the cleaning session when the water is cooler. The Degritter goes into a forced cooling cycle when water hits ~32C and I've never seen records warp while being cleaned within it.
That's interesting what you said about the temperature in a couple of your UCMs. I had a an Audiodesk Vinyl Cleaner Pro and now a Vinyl Cleaner Pro X and I have never had any issues with temperature or records warping. I have a little 6 disk plastic rack made for drying records and I tend to do cleaning sessions on Saturday or Sunday morning, where I clean in batches of 6. I have 800+ of my old LPs to clean plus new purchase, so I have developed a ritual where I clean, enter into Discogs and give the LPs inner and outer sleeves as needed. If I don't have enough new records to get to an even 6, I often wash a few of my old LPs. The most I remember doing was 36 after one particularly bad visit to two record stores. Interestingly the VCP owner's manual never makes mention of potential temperature issues. Is that something that is mentioned in the Kirmuss or Degritter manuals.? I was a bad boy Saturday morning having bought and then cleaned 16 LP's upon returning home. Several of them were thin RCA DynaWarp, err I mean Dynagroove records from the 70's and no issues. I wonder what the difference is? My house is always at 70-76 degrees year round during the day when I am cleaning records which may help. The VCP normally uses a 2 minute cleaning session where the tank is filled The drying time, where the tank is empty, is about 5 minutes. The water would have 5 minutes to cool then. The user can extend both of these times manually, but I rarely have to. Do those other machines clean for longer? I know there are different theories on the best time vs. frequencies for the ultrasonic cleaning. Audiodesk has never officially stated what frequency they use, for them it is like a secret sauce. The only other difference I can think of is the VCP has 4 rotating cleaning rollers which are also in contact with the record during the cleaning cycle. I wonder if the stirring action of these rollers serves to to distribute and cool the water as well. I don't see another marathon cleaning session in my near future until RSD Black Friday. But I am curious now and don't know if I should be worried. The next time I clean a big batch of records I will take the water temperature.
Quick learning question, can one put shellac and acetone records through an Ultrasonic cleaner or for that matter a wet RCM?
Speaking for the Vinyl Cleaner Pro I would say I would not risk it. The machine is made for 12" LPs and has an adapter for 45's. Third parties do make donut shaped adapter rings with cutouts for 10" and 7" records. I am sure the 10" adaptor is intended for early 10" LPs. There are little rubber clips you use to grip the edge of the 10" record and hold it in the "donut hole". They are very fussy and a real PITA. I would worry about cracking the edge of a 78 simply trying to get it in the rubber clamps. Also I had a 10" LP slip out of the clamp and be spun off center half in-half out for a revolution or two before I raced over to it to turn it off. The LP survived I doubt a 78 would have.
Most likely is a function of power and fluid volume. The Vinyl Cleaner Pro contains 4.5L of fluid and at least by this older manual Audiodesk_Pro_Manual-2018-7-Inch-Kit.pdf (galibierdesign.com) max power was only 90W. In comparison, the Degritter is 1.4L and 300W, and the Kirmuss is 7L and 165W. If we convert fluid volume to weight (lbm) and convert power to BTU/min, we can estimate how fast the water will heat, it takes 1-BTU to raise the temperature of water 1F assuming no heat losses. -Vinyl Cleaner Pro = (5.1 BTU/min)/ (9.8-lbs water) = ~0.5F/min. The 90W rating may not be for exclusive for the ultrasonics and likely includes the spinner so actual heating as noted will be less than this estimate. Also not sure if this unit uses fans to cool the electronics which will also keep temps down. If the details are still accurate, this unit does not have a lot of UT power. -Kirmuss = (9.4 BTU/min) /(15.4-lbs water) = ~0.6F/min. The Kirmuss is essentially this unit P4875(II)-4T-NH (isonicinc.com) which states it has three cooling fans to improve heat dissipation and continuous operations. If overheating, there 'may' be problems with the fans or the ambient temp is too high to support continuous operation noting that Kirmuss with the spinner (cover) will hold in the heat. -Degritter = (17.01 BTU/min)/(3.3-lbs water) = ~5F/min. This is why after heavy cleaning it will in the next cleaning enter a cooldown. The Degritter has some serious ultrasonic power.
Well, certainly Kirmuss does - the device has a display for heat (some lights) and warns that once the highest light is on it's time to stop. I see warping well before that. From what I recall the Degritter mentions it in regards the cooling cycle and the aim of staying under safety threshold of ~35C
I'm not aware there are fans in the Kirmuss. Certainly I don't hear any - I will inspect next session to try and determine. Also, there is a big warning about not running the machine for more than 35 mins continuously as that risks damaging the ultrasonics, making me think the Kirmuss is perhaps modified (no fans!) from the base model you mention?
Kirmuss himself stated the following yesterday - Record Cleaning Machines | Audiogon Discussion Forum; "I am sorry but to our Kirmuss KA-RC-1 being made by Isonic is incorrect. Isonic in Chicagoland is a distributor of sonic cleaning devices. Our machine in purchased from the same factory that makes the Isonic machine. That is the only commonality. ....I have interest in my own factory in Shenzhen where we take the basic machine purchased die to economy of scale and the manufacturer's expertise and make changes to it." So its entirely possible his unit does not have the fans.
That`s a typo sorry guy`s. What I like to do is start the heater up and let it reach 35C. I then shut the heater off and clean up to 45C but 45C is the maximum. Never warped a record yet.
I can personally attest to this. I foolishly ran my machine into the ground where one of the transducers exploded. I sent it to Kirmuss for repair. He never saw anything like it!
I took a closer look yesterday - there are port holes on either side of the unit and from one of them you can clearly feel a draft blowing outwards, suggesting a fan is working. I couldn't see clearly enough into the hole to verify and didn't want to stick anything in their to listen for the clatter of the blades for fear of damaging something. But, unless there is evidence to the contrary, I'm now thinking there IS a fan in the Kirmuss unit...
I just demoed a Kirmuss, and while it does seem to clean better than a vacuum machine, it generally left me unimpressed with the basic workings of the machine. One issue that I had was the records slipping easily in the slot and allowing them to potentially scratch. This was a non-starter for me. There are currently very few US machines on the market, we have the pricey Audio Desk and its prior reliability issues, the Degritter which is also pricey and then the Kirmuss. The Humminguru is possibly an option (but at an unknown price and release date) and that seems to be about it ( I don't count the machines that are primarily jewelry cleaners and can have a spit added, not the way to go IMO).. I wonder why there are not many more options for reasonably priced US LP cleaning machines? Seems like there could be a market..worldwide.
I recognise what you are describing, but if it helps I've put hundreds of records through the Kirmuss and haven't scratched a single one even when I've clumsily inserted and missed the rollers such that the record is skewed for a few seconds until I rectify.
Same with me. Getting my replacement model tomorrow, I’m very happy with it. In fact, the Kirmuss machine cleans better than the KLaudio.
Glad to hear that no one else seems to be having the same problem with scratching. I scratched two albums this way, luckily both were not valuable, but still...
Ouch. I do agree those slots look ready to do damage, unlike the Degritter with it's rubber lined edges.
Just wondering, is that because you wet clean as in using an assortment of brushes and fluids etc. as demonstrated by Charles Kirmuss? I use wet cleaning in conjunction with my KLaudio and I can't imagine anything doing a better job? I have silent vinyl replay unless there is a pressing issue. Always interested to know though if there is a better system. The Kirmuss is affordable and I wonder if it would be worth acquiring if only for those records that are still noisy despite going through other cleaning processes? I am talking mainly about 'clicks' and 'pops'. I have a Loreena McKennitt album [Loreena McKennitt – A Midwinter Night's Dream (2014, 180g, Vinyl) ] that is marred by a few 'clicks' and 'pops' on the first couple of tracks. I often wonder if a very intense cleaning process such as the Kirmuss method might improve it at all? It was pressed at Record Industry so it should be a good pressing ... but maybe it's in the pressing.
I'm another happy Degritter owner with roughly 800 cycles on the machine and have had no issues at all. I'd be hard-pressed to think of a better vinyl audio hardware purchase, it's almost as if this machine brings up the sound quality of your vinyl by two levels.
I think if you have US cleaned the record already on your KL that the Kirmuss method probably won't add any meaningful difference. If the record is marred by groove damage, I don't believe any US 'method' can correct that.
Don’t go by my regimen. I’ve spent a lot of time in this thread and I’ve come to the realization that what I was doing was counterproductive, especially after reading Neil’s (@pacvr) suggestions regarding the cleaning of records. They have opened my eyes, so to speak. I used multiple cleaning methods prior to 2015, including vacuum cleaning (VPI), wood glue and all sorts of cleaning fluids. I even tried Gruv Glide! I bought the KLaudio machine in 2015 for $3000. I was able to get it for a grand cheaper than retail price. I passed on the Audio Desk because of the problems people were having with it at the time. The KLaudio seemed to have a better build and didn’t require a cleaning fluid to add to the ultrasonic bath. Those were important factors for me. Additionally, the reviewers raved about it. I thought the machine would be “the be all that ends all” and it would afford me the opportunity to discard all other cleaning methods. I was wrong. While I found the KLaudio to be a solid machine, as a primary source it does not deep clean records enough for my liking. In 2018, I had to send the KLaudio back to the factory for repair. During that time, I started researching other RCMs, including the Kirmuss machine. While I thought Kirmuss was part scientist, part snake oil salesman, the more I watched his YouTube videos, including the few with Michael Fremer, it was worth giving it a try. The one thing that rang true to me was when Kirmuss said one shouldn’t have to spend $4000 for an UCM. His price point of $800 was attractive and eventually pulled the trigger when Fremer gave it a decent review. There are some drawbacks to the Kirmuss machine. You can’t dry a record and his cleaning process, if you follow it, is very labor intensive. However, I’ve found it to be a more effective cleaner of vinyl than the KLaudio. It has a larger tank. You can also clean a record up to 15 minutes. I also like the fact that his machine requires a surfactant, something that turned me off to the Audio Desk 3 years earlier. I changed my regime, using the Kirmuss machine to clean records as a 1st step, followed up with a 3-5 minute rinse and dry in the KLaudio. I got decent results but there were some records that were hard to clean, no matter what I did. A few months ago my Kirmuss machine stopped working because I ran it into the ground. I stopped following his recommended cleaning method from early on and used Audio Intelligent A1-15 cleaner on my records instead of his surfactant. I recently read that Fremer commented that one should not use enzyme cleaners with the Kirmuss machine. I was also cleaning older records, using back to back cleaning cycles of 15 minutes apiece. Eventually, one of my transducers exploded. I didn’t know what I was doing. While I was waiting for my replacement Kirmuss unit, I’ve been reading through this thread and have been following some of Neil’s recommendations regarding the use of different surfactants, mainly Tergitol. I’ve also gone back to my battered VPI 16,5. Folks in this thread seem to be getting terrific results using Tergitol in their Degritters, so I figured why not give it a try using my VPI RCM and use the KLaudio for a final rinse. Thus far, the results have been successful in lowering the noise floor. A few days ago my replacement Kirmuss unit arrived (please note, he didn’t replace it for free). I’ve now incorporated the Kirmuss machine into the process. For stubborn to clean and older records, I’ll start with the VPI using Tergitol, and a DW rinse. The 2nd step involves the Kirmuss machine. This time, I’m following his recommendations, only using his surfactant. After the Kirmuss, I use the KLaudio for a final rinse and then a dry. Perhaps this is overkill, but I’ve found that the sound actually opens up! For new vinyl, I’ve been using the Kirmuss with his surfactant and his recommended cleaning methods, followed by a rinse in the KLaudio. The KLaudio has been a $3000 unit used to rinse records! I’ll probably phase it out once I buy a Degritter. I don’t need to use 3 ultrasonic cleaners. I’m now fully convinced that UCMs need to be used in combination with other machines/devices (vacuum cleaner, Spin Clean, etc.). Bill Hart had it correct from the beginning. The reason why I find the Degritter appealing, other than the extremely positive reviews, is that it affords one the best of both worlds with removable tanks. Different surfactants can be used as well. It seems to be me that the designers of this system got it right. Anyway, I think your cleaning method is solid. At its price point the Kirmuss machine is worth the money, but I’d rather have a Degritter.
Your KL Audio is 40kHz & 200W ultrasonics (100W each side) firing directly at the record in a bath of 2.5L The Kirmuss is 35kHz & 160W ultrasonics firing from the bottom in a bath of ~7.4L. The KL Audio is measurably a much more powerful unit (watts/liter) with optimum transducer positioning. Any benefit the Kirmuss UT has is that its not a pumped/filtered design so it can easily operate with a surfactant (chemistry) to help with some cleaning. But, if you are doing a wet pre-clean before final clean distilled/deionized with your KL Audio, this is about as good as it gets. The Degritter with 120kHz & 300W ultrasonics (150W each side) firing directly at the record in a bath of 1.4L may do better at removing the really small particles. Otherwise, there may be options to improve your wet pre-clean process using different chemistry depending on what you currently use.
Neil, I still don’t know what I’m taking about!!! The makers of the KLaudio machine recommended against using any kind of surfactant in the bath. I’m only using distilled water. At least one has options with the Degritter. I’m still trying to find my way.
I do have a question regarding the KLaudio. I’ll put a newly purchased LP in the tank for a 3-5 minute clean, followed by a 2-3 minute dry. The record will sound noisier than it did before I cleaned it. The record is filled with ticks. Sometimes I have to be play it once before the noise disappears. What causes this? This even happens with a new tank of water. I try to ensure that I throughly clean the tank when I get rid of the dirty water. I’m not using this machine for deep cleans. This has soured me on the KLaudio. Extremely frustrating. I wouldn’t be surprised if I’m doing something wrong, but I utilize nothing but distilled water.
Your doing fine. Yes, I have read the KL Audio operators manual. I have some pictures of the KL Audio internals, its a complex machine; there are 4 transducers (2 each side) and they are bolted.
