The Ultrasonic vinyl cleaner owners thread

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Josquin des Prez, Mar 4, 2019.

  1. Subagent

    Subagent down the rabbit hole, they argue over esoterica

    Location:
    Arlington, VA
    Honestly, my wife doesn't care. And pretty much everything in this hobby/passion beyond a certain point would be considered excessive by those who aren't interested. So I won't be hiding anything in the garage. No one but my brother-in-law ever asks how much my gear costs anyhow. And he's just nosy.

    Besides, I got it on clearance sale. :winkgrin:
     
  2. Warren Jarrett

    Warren Jarrett Audio Note (UK) dealer in SoCal/LA-OC In Memoriam

    Location:
    Fullerton, CA
    Thinking about what you wrote, I don't think I understand what you mean by "Honestly, my wife doesn't care". Please explain. The reason I am confused is that I don't think I have ever met anyone who "doesn't care" how much things cost. Its not always about being able to afford something, but more the principle of looking for value. And therefore, as you stated, interest in and knowledge of the high end audio world determine one's price range evaluation, considering at what cost audio equipment is valuable.

    My first location for my audio business was in the West Hollywood Hills, next to Beverly Hills. The potential customers who visited me generally drove Bentleys, Jaguars, Range Rovers, and Rolls Royces. But most of them thought the prices of what I displayed were unthinkably high, and price was generally their major concern about buying any of it. Now, my customers in Orange County don't even call or visit unless they already know about the prices they would be considering to pay, if interested in the equipment I have for sale. They generally also care about prices, mostly because we normal wage earners need to keep our budgets balanced with perspective, associated with our income AND interest levels.

    Where spouses fit into this, in their evaluation of what the other-half is spending on HIS/HER hobbies, instead of their items of mutual interest, interests me.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2019
  3. Subagent

    Subagent down the rabbit hole, they argue over esoterica

    Location:
    Arlington, VA
    Warren,

    "Doesn't care" is sort of a catchall expression. I would not normally go into much more detail on this topic for fear entering "TMI" territory, but since you are genuinely curious, here goes:

    I've been married for 30 years. Both my wife and I have careers. We each meet agreed upon goals for savings and retirement. We both have agreed upon limits for the accrual of consumer debt (i.e. credit cards as a short term convenience, rather than a long term source of...anything). As long as the basics are being handled and the long term goals are being met, the rest is gravy. Not a whole boatload of gravy, mind. Sort of small servings of gravy a few times a year maybe. In any case, she rests assured that I have not jeopardized our financial future and she seems happy when I am happy (and vice versa). She does not ask what gear costs not because (and despite what I said) she does not care, but because she knows that all is well. Of course, she knows that stuff is pretty pricey but sees no reason to make me justify or rationalize (and, again, vice versa).

    There are often other considerations, and we look at those when necessary. I should also note that we are both approaching retirement age. We are at in our peak earning years. Obviously, this was not always the case. So, right now is my opportunity to build my final system. She understands that.

    Trust and respect and love-- that's what we practice.
     
  4. Warren Jarrett

    Warren Jarrett Audio Note (UK) dealer in SoCal/LA-OC In Memoriam

    Location:
    Fullerton, CA
    Thank you for your candid explanation. I understand now, enjoyed reading your sentiment, and appreciate your mutual respect, love and support.
     
    Subagent and 5-String like this.
  5. Josquin des Prez

    Josquin des Prez I have spoken! Thread Starter

    Location:
    U.S.
    My wife cares what things cost, but she also accepts that things cost a lot, and more than she thinks they should cost. However, she would rather me just get it all my purchases done now while I'm working – making a good salary and some great bonuses – so I get to the point of being happy enough that I don't spend money on it in retirement (other than the occasional phono cartridge replacements and collecting records). So I really sort of understand where @Subagent is coming from.
     
    Warren Jarrett and Subagent like this.
  6. Josquin des Prez

    Josquin des Prez I have spoken! Thread Starter

    Location:
    U.S.
    This is pretty much my life too, except we'll be married 24 years next month.

    I want to retire in 5 years or so. I still want to add to my hifi and that's all doable. Our financial outlook now is that our assets will almost double between age 65 and 90, living comfortably but mot excessively, and we want to keep it that way. In about 2-3 years we will put a chunk of money into a safe money market account that will grow to the payoff of our house when we retire. I'm 60 1/2 and want to retire sometime between my 64th and 66th birthday. Until then I am great monthly bonuses for carrying a software development team with very nice bill rates under my wing and can use that to build my system (and other things).
     
    Warren Jarrett and Subagent like this.
  7. Warren Jarrett

    Warren Jarrett Audio Note (UK) dealer in SoCal/LA-OC In Memoriam

    Location:
    Fullerton, CA
    Wow, this has turned in a very personal thread. Shall I tell you some of my story?

    I was a Mechanical Engineer for about 25 years, quickly becoming in charge of the development of new consumer electronics products. So I had software engineers, electrical engineers and mechanical engineers working for me, to develop electro-mechanical door hardware, cordless phones and answering machines, a Rock-Ola jukebox, and SCUBA equipment. Then my health started to fail. At about 50 years old, the radiation treatments I had been given at 20, to cure Hodgkin's Disease, started to take its toll on my heart, lungs and esophagus, so I couldn't work 20 hours a week any more. Mind you, I am not sad at all about this, because the radiation saved my life, before chemo was discovered and implemented. So, I had VERY high doses of radiation and much more dramatic surgeries than Hodgkin's patient have more recently. It saved my life and I had more than 30 years of avid SCUBA diving, skiing, off-road motorcycle riding and high-end audio interests. I have been to every CES in Las Vegas and Chicago since 1984... and loving it.

    By 59 years old I became VERY weak, and started to need heart, lungs and throat surgeries to continue my survival, which all worked miracles to guarentee I am not going to die, again, within the foreseeable future. But I am usually not feeling well now, and count on audiophile friends and customers to help me run The Audio Home, my dedicated residential home, full of audio equipment. So I have the luxury of flexible hours and when I do work, it just feels like fun. The home is paid for, so my overhead is low. No worries there either.

    Back when I couldn't work anymore, it really took a long time for me to understand why. I thought I was simply losing interest and starting to hate working under supervision, or maybe just becoming lazy. Actually I was feeling weaker and weaker, I developed adult-onset type 1 diabetes, which took a long time to diagnose due to its rarity, and finding it harder to concentrate on the myriad of details that a project engineer needs to keep track of. I needed a job with much less than 40 hours of work each week. Then, Music First Audio approached me to be their exclusive dealer for the entire USA, because of my intense interest in their passive transformer step-ups and preamps (mostly their step-ups, because I love MC cartridges). I helped bring notoriety to their products in the USA. Then Audio Note (uk) needed a new representative for the Los Angeles area (because the previous one was only using AN to attract customers to the OTHER lines he carried), and asked Music First Audio if they knew anyone. Well, yeah, that was me. Now, I don't make any money hardly at all, my much younger wife does (luckily), and I am really having fun representing a brand that I think is just phenomenal.

    I have 5 listening rooms in The Audio Home: Room 1 is simply a reference system of very expensive components, which I keep buying and selling to experiment and keep fresh; Room 2 is a full mid-price Audio Note system that stays the same because it just sounds so great, just as it is; and Room 3 is a low-end 75% Audio Note system which proves AN can be integrated with other brands for VERY good sound too. Rooms 4 and 5 are under development for other brands that I carry, such as Voss Audio, the Kirmuss RCM, Triangle Art turntables, and Aidas cartridges.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2019
  8. Jim0830

    Jim0830 Forum Resident

    I am not an engineer (I'm an architect) and I don't play one on TV. I have thought about this myself though and I think it is a combination of several things.
    • The biggest contributor is the whole house humidifier which I have had for 10 years now and the smart thermostat I installed last August. The combination of the new thermostat and the humidifier is capable of keeping the house at any RH level you want on a continually adjusted basis. Before that my "dumb" thermostats had one level you would set for the entire winter. The smart thermostat is internet enabled and so it knows the local weather. Instead of having to set one level the was too low for the warmer days and too high for the coldest days, the thermostat continually adjusts for the current weather. As an architect RH is something I know about and it has been interesting to watch this thermostat adapt to changing conditions. The house is comfortable, I don't get headaches from the air being too dry, I don't get condensation on windows from the air being too humid for the outside air temp and I NEVER get shocked touching metal objects.
    • Every record I own are put into MoFi sleeves. Before any record gets played on my TT for the first time, it gets cleaned in the AD. I added a column in my Discogs to reflect whether a record is: uncleaned, cleaned with my old Okki Nokki or cleaned with the AD VCP. I reclean records that were cleaned with the Okki Nokki. I am also careful pulling the record in and out of the sleeve to minimize surface contact.
    • I have an AQ gold carbon fiber brush which I use from time to time if needed. It really hasn't been needed and what was on the record I think was random material in the air. It doesn't really cling to the surface like it would if the record had a static charge.
    • I recently added a record sweeping brush that looks like a small tone arm and sweeps across the record just ahead of the tone arm. (Great Record Brush) It is grounded and I use it to pick up anything that might fall on the record during play. It works well enough it seems to be replacing the carbon fiber brush.
    And it could just be **** luck, but that's my story and I am sticking to it.
     
  9. classicrocker

    classicrocker Life is good!

    Location:
    Worcester, MA, USA
    Thanks for taking the time to respond Jim. Looks like we are fellow Mass residents so I can relate to the RH challenges.

    Sounds like you have it covered from many angles and the lack of static is not related to your record cleaning process which was my question.
     
  10. Jim0830

    Jim0830 Forum Resident

    I have been thinking a little more about the issue @Optimize has been having. There is one thing he could try that could stay simple with purely his two ears as the test instrument. In many ways, these are the only "test instruments" that matter. However, if he has the right additional equipment he could take some electrical measurements. This test would involve a little financial outlay on his part and would be predicated on his finding someone with a different UCM, preferably a dedicated model like the AD or KL
    • Buy two pressings of the exact same new LP from the same store. This would hopefully insure these records are from the same pressing and close together as far as when they were pressed from the same record. It might help to get a record that has the type of instruments that are most affected by the cleaning on his machine. A new pressing is hopefully going to be pretty quiet which would remove hiss and the pyscho-acoustic aspect of this. The rolled off highs would not be perceived due to lack of hiss.
    • Put a Demo type label on each disks label to help keep them from getting confused during the process.
    • Listen to both LP's several times before cleaning, to insure they sound similar and to get used to the sound.
    • Clean one on his system and one on the other UCM for one standard cleaning cycle as recommended by each manufacturer.
    • Listen to both LP's again to see if there is a noticeable difference. It would be interesting to have a friend put the disks on the TT so the listens doesn't know which is which.
    Another level this could be taken to is to run the signal into a computer and record before and after cleaning hi-res digital files for both disks. It would be interesting to see what, if any, changes there were to the wave forms.
     
    Optimize likes this.
  11. Jim0830

    Jim0830 Forum Resident

    RE: MA, I noticed and I knew you would relate. This is not the thread for it, but sometime I may ask you about any good record stores out your way. Worcester is not too far way.

    RE: the cleaning process: Not quite true...I misunderstood your question. I thought you were asking how they stayed static free over time. Most all of the reviews I have read about UCMs have mentioned how the records have no static charge. I always assumed that it was the dunk in the water that did this and then the use of a fan to dry the records. I assumed the static charge was given off to the water. By using a fan to air dry the record, the only thing on the AD that touches the LP during and after cleaning are vinyl wipers which would not carry a charge.

    While I can not provide the exact scientific evidence for why this works, I have consistent anecdotal evidence. I have bought many NEW records where the paper or vinyl inner sleeves were stuck to the record like glue. I have had to put on nitrile gloves so I can wiggle my finger in and touch the record surface and slowly, slowly pry the inner sleeve away from the LP. Sidebar: Don't get me started about how some of the worst offenders are expensive deluxe box sets that use cheap static prone inner sleeves. Once I pry the disk free from the inner sleeve it often makes static noises as emerges. It attracts dust out of the air. After cleaning, these disks are as statically inert as any other disk I have cleaned. The record cleaner does discharge the static somehow. The humidifier and other cleaning procedures help keep it that way.
     
  12. Bart

    Bart Forum Resident

    Location:
    Boston
    The main factor was my ability to get a nice discount on the Audio Desk current model, and the dealer's recommendation. It's more about the dealer and discount vs. trying to discern which I might prefer (that I could only do by reading reviews etc.).
     
    Josquin des Prez likes this.
  13. classicrocker

    classicrocker Life is good!

    Location:
    Worcester, MA, USA
    Pretty much what I thought and I understand the UCM helps to discharge the static. It is all the other measures you take which is keeping the LP's static free.

    regarding record stores in Worcester there is only one I frequent but it is decent. small store but quality used vinyl at reasonable prices.

    Joe's Albums - New & Used Vinyl Records & More...
     
    Jim0830 likes this.
  14. Jim0830

    Jim0830 Forum Resident

    Thanks for the referral. Their website was intriguing, lots of sealed new vinyl too. It is nice to let the UCM have an easy job of it cleaning some new vinyl.

    Based on my experience I would say it would be worthwhile getting a humidifier to cover your listening room if a whole house solution is not feasible.
     
  15. classicrocker

    classicrocker Life is good!

    Location:
    Worcester, MA, USA
    Yes, we have forced air heating so things do get dry. With all the allergies we have, I am reluctant to get a system that hooks into the heating as I have heard negative things about mold.

    I have been using an old vintage Zerostat which seems to do the job for now but we have considered and humidifier for the family room and may have to look again.

    I think you would enjoy Joe's albums as he has a decent stock. The owner Joe was an IT guy I think who decided to start the store so that may be why he has such an organized website. he is picky about what he buys so all the used vinyl I have bought at least passes the eyeball test as EX. I have gotten some noisy LPs from him but most play well after cleaning. It is a good rainy day trip if you have a few hours to browse. He is a good guy but only works there weekdays if you want to sell anything or talk vinyl with him.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2019
    Jim0830 likes this.
  16. Optimize

    Optimize Forum Resident

    Location:
    EU
    Thanks for your replies!
    Thanks for your thoughts!

    Yes, I have also thought of a test procedure.
    I do not believe in convince any of you by me testing and listening and getting to a result.
    That whatever I will say will always of somebody still thinking it is psychoacoustic in one or another way.
    Hearing is believing. :)

    Like you say you do not need two records. Start with a good CLEAN record. First record it to computer then do UC with let say 6 times 10 minutes. Then record it again. And hope that you guys can contribute with computer aided comparison.

    The goal is NOT to evaluate which UCM gives best results. Or if I or you can hear any SQ degradation after 3 or 5 minutes cavitation (=ultrasound cleaning).

    It is not to evaluate if X kHz is better or worse than some other frequency. Remember that the frequency determine the size of the cavitation bubbles. But the cavitation process is still there and ongoing but with different sizes of cavitation bubbles.

    I believe it should be pretty hard to hear one cleaning occurrence of there were any SQ degradation with a clean record to begin with.
    And maybe 6 cleaning cycles is 6 times more likely that we hear any SQ degradation. (Yes you need to let the transducers cool down between the cycles as I have mentioned already ones)

    The goal is to determine if cavitation harm our records or not.
    If the cavitation process harm our records then it is good to know.
    And we can by our self determine how much SQ degradation we want to expose our records with erosion by cavitation from 0 to 60 minutes.
    But if no SQ degradation is found then the cavitation process is safe for our records.

    Yes, I hear you and I believe that if you take a dirty record and make cavatation for some few minutes. That that very small amount of erosion is not noticed in the SQ. But the dirt that is removed is a greater SQ improvement than the erosion negative effects are if any. But that is not the goal of this exercise.
    So do not miss understand me.
     
  17. Optimize

    Optimize Forum Resident

    Location:
    EU
    Done!
    Took a good record 45 rpm and recorded it:
    Flac 96000Hz 24 bit.
    Used only virgin desitiled water. Nothing at all in it only using purified water.
    Total acumulated time 60 min with 40 kHz

    Below before and after files:
    Dropbox - BeforeCavitation000.flac
    Dropbox - AfterCavitation002.flac
    (When comparing the before and after then for be shure only compare the first ~3 min of the after file see below explaining why. And in the after file in the 4:40 to the end has not been under under water line so it should be the same as the before file.)

    As seen below the bath is not compleatly filled up. That way still the last part in the file above from ~4:40 min to the end is not caviated:
    Dropbox - IMG_20190323_103105.jpg

    Maybe have the skills to import the files in a audio program and maybe compare them? :)
     
  18. hammr7

    hammr7 Forum Resident

    Up to this point I have described generically how ultrasonic baths can be used to clean LPs, just as they can be used to clean most anything.

    Now I want to delve into the specifics of LPs. Cleaning LPs does require specialized care. Optimal cleaning requires understanding the composition of the LPs (there are differences among LPs). It requires optimizing the cleaning aids added to the distilled water bath, and also optimizing the specific methods (time, temperature, bath size, etc.) utilized in the cleaning procedures.

    This post describes the various chemical components that make up the final vinyl mixture utilized for LPs. Understanding the vinyl composition allows you to determine what processes and what process aids can be used in cleaning LPs.

    Record vinyl is actually a mixture of PVC resin and other components that provide the necessary characteristics desirable for an LP: 1) A homogeneous compound that can be properly deformed under heat and pressure to impart a smooth, uniform surface with the microscopic shapes containing the necessary music information; and 2) a stable compound to retain that musical information over many decades without deforming or decomposing under normal storage and use conditions.

    In this and other threads contributors have noted that there have been numerous vinyl formulations used over the years. While this is true, the most popular formulations are pretty consistent. We care most about the best pressings of any given musical piece. These may be 1st pressings, which are usually made with virgin resins and new stampers (as opposed to a Columbia House copy issued on the thinnest vinyl ever). Or they may be pressings from Japan or Europe that are heavier and quieter. It turns out that initial stampings are usually better controlled and utilize better stamping surfaces, as are smaller size lots. Once mass production is involved most optimization efforts to minimize material used, to cheapen the formulation, and to speed up production often compromise sonic integrity a bit (but hopefully only a bit).

    What can be said is that most of the successful pressings - those that were able to best be imprinted with the best music - are rather similar in their production characteristics. They may have been pressed slower, with a thicker vinyl disk, and under greater pressure. And germane to this discussion, they probably used a premium vinyl compound.

    Let me start by describing the possible components that make up the vinyl compounds that were and are typically used in LP manufacturing. You need to know the strengths and weaknesses of the LP substrate to determine what will clean it and what might ruin it.

    One of the better overviews of the components in vinyl formulations for LP manufacturing can be found here:

    Composition of vinyl records- Vinyl Engine

    The author researched vinyl compounding in general and what he could find about vinyl LPs. While I take exception to some of his specific (to LP formulation) inferences, his research was sound for vinyl compounds in general. As you review his article, understand that for each category there are and were numerous materials that were available. The best compounds usually used the better (and more expensive) components. Cost cutting sometimes led to better alternative compounds, but more often led to substituting lesser (cheaper) compounds with the hope that the compromise couldn’t be heard in the final product. For most LPs played on low-fi equipment you wouldn’t tell the difference.

    In addition, lesser pressings may have been made on inferior equipment, with worn stampers, or with production methods that optimized throughput at the expense of sound.

    PVC resins are the primary component. Virgin vinyl is always the easiest to formulate with, and there are many different types of virgin PVC resin. The major chemical difference lies in how extensively the vinyl polymer has been cross-linked. The larger the average molecular weight, the stronger, the more rigid (and potentially brittle), and the more likely to scorch (when exposed to heat) the PVC resin becomes. Smaller molecular weight PVC resins are softer and melt at lower temperatures, which makes them easier to work with but may compromise the long-term strength of the resulting record. Regardless of which resin (or resin blend) is used, pure PVC resin by itself doesn't have all the desirable characteristics, to make LPs. Formulation chemists must add other materials to enhance the compound.

    Another resin, PVA (polyvinyl acetate) can be added to make a rigid PVC resin compound more flexible. PVA is often the base material in wood glues. It blends well with PVC, and helps stabilize PVC resin.

    Fillers are not necessary for a good vinyl compound, but they do reduce material costs, and they are not inherently bad if used appropriately. Many early LPs (pre-1965) sound pretty good because they were thicker (heavier) and had no (or minimal) fillers. By 1975 – after the first OPEC oil embargo - PVC resin became quite expensive, and records became thinner and / or included a higher filler load. The combination of higher filler usage and thinner records - plus faster LP stamping speeds - led to many really bad sounding LPs.

    Recycled LP vinyl (from all those returned cut-out records) can be the best filler, where fillers are required. LP vinyl already has most or all of the needed additives described below. Since most records were black, color wasn’t an issue.

    Potential problems with recycled vinyl included trace contaminants, including paper and glue residues from labels. There are also problems when vinyl resins have been re-melted too many times (known as “heat history”, PVC turns very brittle and begins to catastrophically decompose after too many exposures to high heat).

    Recycled vinyl with minimal contamination and heat history will easily melt into the new vinyl compound, but as contamination and / or heat history increase the recycled material becomes harder to process. Other fillers (like clay and diatomaceous earths) are more like putting tiny stones in an aggregate concrete mix, only on a microscopic scale. The surfaces may still look smooth but may actually become a bit rougher, resulting in more surface noise.

    In terms of relative costs, recycled vinyl (after processing) usually cost a manufacturer 25% to 50% of virgin resin costs, while other fillers might cost 10% of the cost. While no record company went out of its way to make bad vinyl compounds with too much filler, virtually all of them tried formulation cost cutting until quality suffered at least a little bit. As already noted, the masses usually wouldn’t notice but an audiophile might.

    Colorants were always used. I never saw a perfectly clear record, although we all have seen translucent records. Translucent formulations tend to be more expensive, with no or minimal fillers. The fact that most records are black results from carbon black being one of the least expensive pigments, and also being the color that best hid other additives. Carbon black also helps lock in other additives, to keep them from migrating to the surface. Formulation chemists know how to utilize carbon black as a beneficial additive. White pigments, like titanium dioxide, were also inexpensive. But white can’t completely eliminate another color like black can. If white is utilized, then color loading (the level of other colors added) becomes more difficult if you want consistent color.

    In the referenced article stabilizers are listed as "heat stabilizers" but that is an oversimplification. There are many different kinds of desirable stabilization. You want chemical stabilization, flame retardants, UV stabilization, biocides and fungicides, etc. So in any LP formulation there were usually multiple stabilizers.

    Process aids and internal lubricants were used by some manufacturers. The faster and hotter the stamping process, the more likely you needed something that could act as a mold release.

    Finally, I take exception to inferences that plasticizers were used to any large extent in LP formulations. If they had been, many records would now be exuding plasticizers and the LPs would be catastrophically degrading in front of our eyes, regardless of what we did or didn’t do to protect our LPs.

    Plasticizers were commonly used in all sorts of flexible PVC compounds, like vinyl upholstery (auto interiors), pool liners and vinyl wall covering, etc. But typical plasticizers, such as the referenced phthalates, will exude from vinyl compounds over time unless the vinyl substrate receives additional sealing coatings, usually containing acrylic or urethane resins. If the vinyl formulation used a conventional plasticizer we would need to replenish it on a regular basis.

    If you have ever dealt with mid-1950’s PVC coated wiring, and if it has turned into a gooey mess, that is an example of the plasticizer leaching out of the PVC compound and taking stabilizer with it. Another example is any classic car where the vinyl interior cracks and peels off the fabric support. This usually starts in high traffic areas (driver’s seat), especially where the material has been exposed to heat or sun. Most vinyl cleaning products for cars highlight their ability to rejuvenate. These products either add a plasticizer replacement or build the wear coat. Just like a wood cleaner might add some kind of oil to the cleaning components. With LPs we ideally don’t want anything added back, ever. Some of the problems US baths are trying to correct are the result of adding substances to the LP surface in the past.

    LPs never received any subsequent surface coating after being pressed. If any record manufacturer ever tried using plasticizers, even at low levels, they would quickly run into all sorts of quality issues. My guess is that the author took information from non-LP PVC compounds that were misrepresented as possibly applying to LPs.

    In summary, most good vinyl LPs are chemically inert to water and extremely stable at room temperature. This means the vinyl compound is not decomposing and is not exuding any of its component materials. When cleaning them, we must understand that LPs, while strong, are not inert. Vinyl compounds can be adversely affected by certain solvents. Vinyl compounds can decompose with excessive exposure to acidic and other corrosive environments. Plastic deformation (meaning the substrate deforms and doesn’t recover) can happen under excessive heat and pressure situations. Mechanical erosion – a concern in many of this thread’s posts – can occur, although cavitation alone shouldn’t normally be the cause. If it is, the power level used might be too high.
     
    nelamvr6 likes this.
  19. Bill Hart

    Bill Hart Forum Resident

    Location:
    Austin
    And so-called "mold release compound"?

    My understanding based on papers in the AES repository is that carbon black was added as an anti-static agent in addition to covering 'plate out' problems as described in one paper.
     
  20. hammr7

    hammr7 Forum Resident

    Mold release compounds were covered in the "processing aids and internal lubricants" category. Any mold release had to be something that was internal to the vinyl compound. An analogy would be a non-stick coating on a pan, but with that non-stick component uniformly distributed thru the entire LP. If you sprayed anything on the metal stampers there was no guarantee it would distribute uniformly, and there was an extreme likelihood that it would compromise the precision of each stamping by filling the valleys of the stamper.

    As I noted (and perhaps oversimplified), carbon black brought a number of benefits to the vinyl formulation. For purposes of cleaning records in the present, it is not necessary to know why it was used, rather only that it was used.
     
  21. Bill Hart

    Bill Hart Forum Resident

    Location:
    Austin
    Ah. I see you did mention the words. I think that's a big bugaboo in cleaning and over-hyped in my estimation.
    Give me some context here if I missed it: are you chemist/material scientist? Do you play and clean vinyl LPs? Not busting your chops, just trying to create a dialog and understand where you are coming from.....
     
  22. hammr7

    hammr7 Forum Resident

    I have been an avid audio guy since I was very young.

    My early background - the first few decades of my professional career - were as a chemist / chemical engineer. I spent 15 of those years in plastics processing, most of it vinyl processing. While I never specifically worked on LP formulations, I spent time as a research chemist developing novel plastics additives, some of which were used in LP formulations. Later I worked as a Process Engineering Manager and eventually as a Technical Director for major flexible vinyl manufacturers.

    I now have about 8,000 LPs, many of them rescued from less than stellar audio situations. I enjoy bringing them back as close to their original glory as possible. I have a home-brew US cleaner, an older Nitty Gritty cleaner, and more basic tools of the trade, including a gallon or two of Aileen's Wood Glue, which in diluted form I will paint on the dirtiest records as an initial treatment after rinsing off surface crud.
     
  23. Bill Hart

    Bill Hart Forum Resident

    Location:
    Austin
    Thank you. I appreciate your response and your input is welcome to me-- I got serious about this cleaning stuff about 6 years ago, though I had a VPI since the early '80s and lots of records. I'm not a scientist, but can grok much of it--
    Look forward to your additional posts on the subject.
    Bill Hart
     
  24. hammr7

    hammr7 Forum Resident

    Sorry for the long delay getting this section out:

    The chemistry of vinyl LPs determines what parameters must be maintained in any kind of a cleaning situation, and specifically when ultrasonic (US) baths are involved. Critical parameters include temperature, time, chemical exposure (bath chemistry) and effective mechanical (power) agitation.

    This section discusses temperature effects on vinyl formulations.

    PVC, by itself, is a very hard and strong material. It stands up well to water and to many organic solvents. During the heyday of LPs (1960-1985) pure PVC was difficult to process for all but the most basic applications, like PVC pipe. One of the difficulties was controlling the temperature at which PVC can be formed and molded, while not overheating the PVC to its decomposition temperature. Pure PVC resin normally requires a temperature as high as ~ 350 F (~177 C) to become workable but decomposes catastrophically if taken to ~ 400 F (~ 204 C) for any length of time. LPs require the ultimate in workability, because the pressed record grooves must be formed perfectly with acoustic information.

    Plasticizers are often used as a PVC processing aid. But as already noted, for LP applications conventional plasticizers were and are inappropriate. Plasticizers help lower the processing temperatures of vinyl, but plasticizers compromise the strength and impact resistance of the resulting vinyl product.

    The LP formulation alternative was to blend polyvinyl acetate (PVA or PVAc, not to be confused with polyvinyl alcohol, a different “PVA”) at ~ 15% weight with PVC resin. This blend reduced the required melt viscosity (the temperature at which the polymeric blend can be spread into a thin LP shape) to ~130 to ~140 C in the record presses. The PVC/PVAc polymer blend maintains nearly all of the strength and impact resistance of pure PVC. PVAc effectively acts as an internal lubricant to make processing easier without compromising key LP requirements. The polymer blend still receives other additives, most notably stabilizers and pigments. These additives were (and are) completely encapsulated within a homogeneous polymer blend under normal conditions. Which gets us to what types of environments can compromise the chemical and mechanical integrity of typical LPs.

    Temperature: The temperature at which an LP is handled has a huge effect on the types of damage to which it is susceptible. The best comparison is taffy candy (remember Turkish Taffy?). If you freeze taffy it is a rigid solid, and if chilled sufficiently it becomes hard but very brittle. As you warm it up it becomes chewy at room temperature and melts as you heat it further. Vinyl LPs are a bit like taffy, only they stay reasonably rigid until ~ 50 C and then gradually soften at higher temperatures.

    Pressing or stamping vinyl from its heated, taffy-like form is effectively embossing (imprinting a 3-dimensional surface design). One truth about most thermoplastics is that reheating them anywhere near the original “emboss” temperature can undo some or all the embossed pattern. Whether or not you cause damage, if you heat an LP above 100 C it will cause substantial softening to an LP surface. This does not mean you could never use steam as part of the cleaning process. But it does mean you don’t want to let an LP sit in steam indefinably.

    There are circumstances where even lower temperatures can be problematic. If you consider that records warp at room temperature under the right stresses (typically their own weight), you would expect that warping will be worse or happen quicker if the record is hotter (for example in the sun). The takeaway is that LPs can become pliable at temperatures well below the vinyl formulation’s melt temperature. Thankfully slight warps of the LP are not usually accompanied by similar degradation of record groove details.

    The key limit is the bulk LP temperature. For example, exposing a record to a low pressure steamer (steam temp 105 C) may only warm the record itself by a few degrees, since the heat capacity of vinyl is much greater than that of a small amount of (gaseous) steam. In contrast, having an LP immersed in a water bath means that the LP will eventually achieve an equilibrium temperature close to the bath temperature. As a side note, don’t assume that a record that only spends 1/3 of its time immersed in a bath won’t approach the bath temperature. Especially with covered US baths, the air temp will quickly approach the bath temp. While the record will heat slower in air than in water, if the air temperature is the same as the bath temperature the vinyl will not cool as it rotates out of the water.

    This is why US cleaners recommend against heating the bath beyond 40 C for cleaning items like LPs. This is also the reason why starting a bath at 40 C and then running it at high power for extended periods is not a great idea. Power gets dissipated as heat, which further warms the bath (among other things). Ideally, the lower the US bath temperature, the better. LPs were designed to operate at normal room temperatures (20 – 25 C or 68 – 77 F) so excursions to 40 C (104 F) should not normally be a problem. But as temperature increases the effects of process (cleaning) time, power, and bath chemistry also increase, for good or for bad.
     
    nelamvr6 likes this.
  25. Bill Hart

    Bill Hart Forum Resident

    Location:
    Austin
    @hammr7 - this is good stuff. It also explains why we can 'flatten' records to eliminate most gross warps on the appropriate equipment.
     

Share This Page

molar-endocrine