Thermal degradation of vinyl and its expected lifetime?

I guess what I find amusing is that a lot of the people that are worried about this aren't as equally concerned about using a really inexpensive turntable/arm and cartridge combination on their precious records...

I've seen a lot more long term damage done to good records by a 100 dollar phono cartridge and a cheap tone arm....

 

I do'nt want to get people mad at me, but when does the collecting move over to obsession? I was the same way with comics, I would buy two, one to read one to put away, then they had to be in acid free back so mm thick bags, then the boxes, THEN they had to be stored in a dry cool place, etc., etc., i could and did go on.but it became not a hobby that i enjoyed, it became a JOB. I stopped reading them because i didn't have time to! I now listen to my music first then I put it back into it's sleeveor case and listen some to some more. I don't collect to collect, I collect to listen. My cd's and vinyl will be here after I'm long gone.

 

Not gonna work. If the temperature rise exists it will be over far too small an area for that sort of thing to pick up. Probably the best way to actually measure the temperature change is to grab a high-res infrared camera and point it directly at the stylus. But what you're probably going to see there is a stylus that's ludicrously hot, and barely-warmed vinyl. Which doesn't really mean anything, since the groove deformations have just as much to do with pressure than with temperature.

What is "big damage"? What is "minimal wear"? What cartridges did show wear? What kind of microscope did they use to measure wear? What was the test signal? How did they compare the final signal to the original signal?

I don't dispute the conclusion of the paper, really, but just because the OM-40 is the best of the lot doesn't mean that no wear is occurring with it. And it sure as hell doesn't mean that no groove deformations are occurring with it.

BTW, this sort of test is not entirely outside our reach. There's already a guy on this forum with some access to an electron microscope. We've got people with lathe access for test pressings. If any group of people actually wanted to study issues like this in depth, it would be us.

Can some Gort please split this thread off into a groove-deformation thread? It is getting horribly off topic.

 

this is what's known as projection

you were the one who offered to provide proof of the phenomenon's supposed non-existence, and you have repeatedly failed to do so

I've provided sources and my claims were confirmed by multiple members of this forum

the same can not be said for your claims

** EDIT **

I see you have finally provided some info - as I have been trying to tell you all along, this info doesn't disprove the phenomenon

the problem here is not that I haven't tried to answer, but that you have tried to ignore the answers

why would that necessarily prove the vinyl didn't melt when in contact with the needle?

it doesn't

but thank you for conclusively demonstrating what I said above - your claims of "pseudo-hifi science" are apparently indeed projection

 

It's hard for me to be concerned about this since I've been buying old vinyl from decades ago that often still sounds amazing. Seems that the format must therefore be very robust.

 

I'd have to agree with that one...

 

Isn't it common knowledge that the better the turntable/arm/cartridge combinations wear your records much less? Just from the 4 or 5 different TT setups I've used over the last 15-25 years have shown this, quite obviously.

 

Strange, I gave links to one calculation saying that in worst case we are looking at VERY little warm up. I also posted the word from a test done here in Sweden, and then I get people jumping on my and calling me name and "your claims of "pseudo-hifi science" are apparently indeed projection"

Very serious....

 

A few references on groove melting and deformation...

"Role of Scanning Electron Microscope in Disc Recording." George Alexandrovich. AES Preprint 1274, 58th Convention.

KlausR linked to a section from "Handbook for Sound Engineers" on AA. Note that Alexandrovich is also responsible for this quote.

There is some other anecdotal evidence I haven't been able to track down. Apparantly an old issue of The Audio Critic had a guy show examples of melting too. I haven't even tried looking through Audio yet.

On the other hand, Friedrich Loescher of Lenco was apparantly adamant that vinyl melting did not exist. It's worth noting that he was also a staunch supporter of wet playback, and had the electron microscope wear pictures (and the subjective evaluations) to prove it. (see "Long-Term Durability of Pickup Diamonds and Records", JAES v22 #10 p800 (Dec 1974).) In comparison, the first Alexandrovich article I linked above (the preprint) shows pictures of the vinyl being physically ripped apart when played back wet. So this could be an example of two experts with diametrically opposed opinions, except that Alexandrovich's opinion was used in at least one published book (the handbook), and his research was done several years after Loescher's...

 

That would seem true but what if a bad stylus reduces the number of plays from 300 to 200...that's still a large number of plays. Does one need more than that?

Maybe knowing whether the number of plays expected is 50 or 250 or 500 is the better question...some of this discussion is interesting but very academic versus practical.

 

BTW, here is a way of proving that grooves are deformed on playback and slowly revert back to their original shape over a period of time. I've reproduced something like this procedure on my system, with an MMF5 turntable and AT-440ML stylus, when I was on a quest to numerically optimize for VTA/antiskate (long story there). When I get time I'll reproduce this again and post numbers.

1. You'll need four things: a test record with a single tone, a sound card recording from your phono preamp, a sound recording app, and some way of measuring THD on the computer. I use LabVIEW, but Matlab would work too. You may be able to find a freebie online that will do this. I use the HFNRR record with one of its 300hz tones. Be sure to use something with a fairly low level (ie don't use the HFNRR torture tracks).
2. Record the tone track four times in a row, without waiting at all between the playings. Be sure to start the track again no less than about a minute before the last playing.
3. Wait an hour or so, then repeat step 2, this time waiting about 10 minutes between playings.
4. Compare the THD from each playing. You should find that for the step 2 recordings, the THD rises after each play, and for the step 3 recordings the THD should not rise nearly as much.

The rise in THD can be explained either as a change in state in the cartridge/turntable, or a change in state in the vinyl material itself - ie, an elastic deformation. I assert that the latter is more believable, because any state change in the turntable is not sufficient to account for the change in behavior, while elastic deformation of the vinyl explains it completely.

 

I find that important to know in order to better understand what should be an "entry-level" vinyl setup. One shouldn't recommend systems that unduly trash records. In effect, you're trading off the expense of the equipment for deteriorating the value of your records.

And on the same token, one shouldn't recommend equipment on the basis of reduced wear, when in fact the wear does not change, or even increases with the equipment. Wet-playback systems are the prime example of this. One could argue (depending on one's point of view) that Gruv-Glide is another example.

Also... even though I'm a firm believer in vinyl deformation during playback, I also firmly believe that this deformation should result in no record wear in a "proper" playback environment. Elastic deformations are reversible; plastic deformations aren't. There is a lot of AES literature on determining the maximum applied force to still keep playback in the elastic region. For some sizes of conical stylii, it's in the 1-2 gram region... which gives me considerable hope that modern non-circular-contact stylii give basically no plastic deformation.

 

I do agree - vinyl is by far the most resilient of the audio formats in existence. Heck, it might be longer-lasting and more accurate than tape! Still, what I'm trying to show in this thread is that it may not last forever, and people who think that vinyl is a "forever" format are not keeping in mind the chemical processes involved. It's not that they might break or turn to dust; it's stuff like increased ticks and pops and increased wear on playback that I'm worried about. Definitely a minor effect in the grand scheme of things, but if I have the opportunity to mitigate it through improved storage, I'd definitely want to try to mitigate it. Plus, determining stuff like this will give others more informed decisions on where to store vinyl, so that if storing it in the garage/attic turns out to be a lot more dangerous than we thought, we can tell people not to do it.

It all hinges on what evidence we have for it though. And so far I'll admit, there really isn't much of it. But I don't want it sneaking up on me 60 years from now when my 1950s records sound a lot noisier than I thought when I bought them...

 

Fair enough but forever is a long time. What if it is just 300 plays? Isn't that enough?

As for storage, I just assume you want an air conditioned room so temperature is stable.

 

Almost certainly, in my case at least. I just needle drop everything anyways.

Nope. From the original post:

My AC definitely doesn't have a temp tolerance as tight as 2 degrees, especially on the second floor, and it's not humidity controlled, and I turn it up during the day, and it's over 20 C. All four of those issues wound need to be fixed in order to comply with the recommendations.

More generally, I wouldn't expect librarians to have such specific and stringent requirements on vinyl storage without good reasons. They aren't audiophiles, after all. So the specific prohibitions surprise me a bit.

 

This strikes me as exceptionally anal regarding temps. Clearly vinyl does fine in A/C rooms over many decades.

 

What can I say? Librarians are anal.

 

I've yet to experience it. I doubt I ever will. The digital medium when done right is a truly awesome experience with the right equipment. To have a CD/DVD go bad within a few years (if anyone of you have had this happen) does not lend itself to the reliability factor of their analogue counterpart, the vinyl record. When a record is pressed right and properly cared for it truly does offer a lifetime of entertainment IMHO.
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Stays Crunchy Even In Milk

 

Scott, I totally agree with you. There is a line between just enjoying the hobby and becoming rediculously obsessed. How can you ever enjoy something if you spend your entire time protecting it from dangers that are nothing to be concerned with? Afterall, records were meant to be played and bring enjoyment, not to be locked in a vault.

I'm 100% sure my music collection and my musical instruments will be with me the rest of my life, and will be around for generations to come.

 

I don't know, but it doesn't sound like this music thing is much fun for you...

60 years from now, you won't be able to hear anywhere near as well as you can now anyway! I think you are going to incur a lot more wear with the table and cartridge setup you have than the groove melting thing.

Besides, if you are needle dropping everything, you are taking another big step back in fidelity. Why bother agonizing over your LP's if you are just listening to digitized copies?

Sounds like way too much work to have fun to me.