This needs to be talked about (JACKIE Gleason related)

Me and cloggedmind have been searching for the Jackie Gleason Show from 1/17/70 that has The Incredible World of Ed Norton in it. We have contacted many people in regards to finding this episode or at least info as to why it hasn't been released. While most folks we've contacted do not have any concrete answers, most have been eager to help or offer words of encouragement. It is apparent, however, that the actual copyright owners, the Gleason family, are not keen on entertaining requests about the material.

In the past, I have contacted Geraldine Chuktuk, Gleason's daughter, many times and she has always been nice...except for the last time I contacted her. It was not a pleasant talk. I was telling her about the episode that we have been looking for and in the middle, she said: "Get to the point." I asked her about the episode and she said there are no extra clearance issues and it's in a vault. She hung up on me before I asked her where is the vault?

I also contacted Jackie's stepson, Craig Horwich, five years ago, left a message and he didn't respond. I got told beforehand that he might be difficult to deal with. I did however speak to two people who did have pleasant talks with him but when me and cloggedmind asked them to talk to Craig about the episode, they said they didn't think it was a good idea due to either lack of comfortableness or experiences. When cloggedmind heard this, he said that Jackie's children must not be all that interested in dealing with fans. What do you all think of this?

 

Think it's time to move on

 

sounds very much like you will never see the episode

 

Short of a 16mm network print surfacing on eBay or something, It might be a lost cause.

 

I agree

 

I agree. I have been searching on eBay and saw some from around that time period but not THAY episode.

 

Its Season 4, Episode 15 right?

 

The difference in personalities, I guess. I would never consider bothering a relative of a star about some entertainment that I wanted to see. Certainly not once, and definitely not twice, assuming this person wasn't also a friend of mine.

I was taught to respect others' privacy.

 

Yes.

 

Still, there's a business aspect to owning the copyright for the material and being responsible for monetizing or licensing it. Kinda "opens the floor" a bit for random inquiries as such. I used contact information found on the official website to try and find out if, first, the show existed and second, a ballpark figure on licensing, in case one came up with some crazy scheme for a kickstarter for a limited release-- or something to that effect.

I don't think either Frank or I bounded over any steps. My deal is, how you gonna find out if you don't ask?

We do know, now, that the tape is in the archive and is not eligible for licensing. Going forward, we just gotta hope some collector has a rare copy of that show (as well as any other rare footage) since it won't be released officially.

 

What is your end goal for all this?

 

Partly, the goal was to end the mystery surrounding the failed pilot for the Ed Norton series, which Frank has already done as he was told directly that the tape exists, thus dispelling rumors that Gleason had the tape destroyed because it was so bad.

Ultimately, we'd like to see the thing on an official release-- tv, streaming, physical media or otherwise, if not just out of years of curiosity, then for duty and humanity!

 

I think the answer is: you're wasting your time unless you come up with X amount of dollars and have a lawyer involved. Guaranteed, if a real LA entertainment attorney contacted Gleason's estate and said, "we're prepared to offer you $100,000 for the rights to this special, and we'll pay for all the restoration," then they would talk.

If a fan calls and says, "wow, I'd really like to see this show," you're just wasting their time. A lot of showbiz boils down to "where's the money and who gets it?" If you don't start with that, it ain't gonna happen. The California Bar Association can refer you to qualified entertainment law specialists that can handle the negotiation:

The State Bar of California

The other route might be to contact one of the major home video reissue firms, like Shout Factory or Criterion or something like that. My opinion -- based on working in LA for more than 40 years -- is that nobody's going to release a 50-year-old variety show because a) there isn't a big audience who wants to see it, b) clearing all the rights (AFTRA, AFM, WGA, DGA, music publishing, etc.) will be complex and expensive, and c) nobody can say what condition the master tapes are in and how costly that will be to restore. I think it's basically $2000-$3000 to restore a 1-hour 2" videotape provided there are no severe problems.

You could try contacting Shout Factory here:

Shout Factory
2034 Armacost Avenue
Los Angeles, CA 90025
Contact Us | Shout! Factory
(310) 979-5880

 

great advice...as usual it all boils down to money of which the ones with it are usually not interested in investing...very frustrating. There are any shows we'll never see...

 

Yes, there's actually important, famous shows that a lot of people would like to see that aren't out. Usually the reasons boil down to three possible issues:

1) the company/person(s) who own it have a grossly-inflated idea of what it's worth

2) there's a legal cloud over the show where nobody is quite sure who has a claim on it, so there's a good chance you'll be sued if you try to release it

or 3) somebody who owns or was involved with the show specifically doesn't want it out for artistic reasons -- like they believe their performance was bad or there's something about it they strongly dislike.

I'm reminded of how the Batman TV episodes were kept off the home video market until 2014 because of fighting between the comic book company (WB/DC), the studio that paid for the show (Fox), and the production company (Greenway, owned by Bill Dozier's estate). Each company had a say in the rights, and nobody could release it unless all three agreed. It took a toy company exec to get them to sit down and finally come out with the show in 2014, almost 50 years after the first episode aired in 1966.

Why We're Just Now Getting the 1960s Batman TV Show on DVD

A pal of mine is involved with the Lost in Space producers, and he says that took years to come out because basically nobody wanted to spend the money to restore all those episodes. Finally in 2017, producer Irwin Allen's wife, Sheila Matthews, spent a considerably sum (I'm guessing $2M-$3M) to get all the negatives cleaned-up and remastered, which took about a year of work. If she hadn't done that, the films would be still sitting on the shelves, gathering dust.

Note that sometimes, fans clamor for a studio to release an old show (like Star Trek: Next Generation), but then when it comes out, it makes no money... because it cost them $10 million to remaster it. I don't think this Gleason special would cost nearly that much, but I bet it could potentially cost $200K by the time the dust settled. My opinion is that it would never, ever, ever make any money if it cost even half that much.

 

I do appreciate the responses and suggestions! Fwiw, I will contact Shout! and, at least, suggest this as a future release. Can't hurt, right?

There's actually a couple of other specials that would have made a nice standalone release for the likes of MPI, the folks that brought out the lost episodes and the color Honeymooners, but they have stated that there are no plans to release anything else on that front.

Thing is, I believe that sales of the Time-Life release didn't live up to expectations and will, likely, be the last big compilation of anything from the Gleason vault. The classic 39 will endure, the increasingly inaptly-named "Lost Episodes" may continue to be trotted out on future formats and streaming but, as for the variety shows like American Scene and the specials it's game over.

 

All too true. At least 2 shows were not able to be salvaged for the Time-Life set, according to the attached booklet. While we do know the tape for "Incredible World.." is in storage, its condition remains unknown.

 

thanks... that was very informative as usual!

 

Yes, I know of cases where they finally got clearance to release a show or film, then went to the vault... and there was a hole on the shelf where the films or videotapes used to be. Gone... nobody knows where.

Or... they go to the shelf and 2 out of the 3 parts are there. Most of the show, but no ending. Or... they have picture but no sound. Or sound but no picture. Or they have picture & sound in horrific quality that nobody will sit still to watch. Or the elements have deteriorated due to heat exposure, mold, and mildew. Lots of potential things can go wrong.

 

How about scripts for this episode? I know that UCLA has scripts written by Harry Crane and the Online Archive of California has more scripts. Unfortunately, the three people who I knew wrote that Incredible World of Ed Norton is not a part of this Archive unless I am mistaken.maybe I am. The three writers? Rod Parker, Walter Stone and Robert Hilliard.

Reznick (Sidney) Papers

Finding Aid for the Nicholas E. Baehr scripts, ca.1950s-1970s (Collection PASC.234)

Finding Aid for the Todd Hunter papers, 1909-1961

Robert Van Scoyk Papers

 

In addition to UCLA having footage like the 1973 JACKIE Gleason Special, I am wondering if there are other universities and libraries that have footage.

 

No offense intended but a thread title of 'this needs to be talked about' might give some insight into why the calls to the daughter and stepson didn't go so well.

 

This is definitely in the running for the most bizarre and disturbing thread at the forum. Congrats, OP!