Those that returned to SS after owning tubes/valves, why the return?

I'm not sure I've moved to a solid state bit of amplification from tubes.

But I might have.

To explain:

I'm definitely a tube guy. I've used Conrad Johnson Premier 12s (140w/side tube) for over 20 years, have also tried other tube amps, and quite a number of tube pre-amps. (This is driving many different types of speakers). Through the years just out of interest I have bought or borrowed solid state equipment to try in my system and every time the end result is reminding me why I love the tube amps.

This was the case a while back when I borrowed a Bryston 4B3 and for about a month or more went back and forth from my CJ premier 12s. It's always the same thing: I'm first struck by the things the solid state does well - that tightness, the precision and solidity of transients, control of the bass, and with a good amp like the Bryston a purity and slightly higher sense of accuracy and transparency.

On the other hand, everything sounds more artificial, less relaxed, less "present" and textural, less organic, less rich and filled out, less dimensional, less believable, to my ears. And so it goes...

However I recently bought a Benchmark LA4 Preamp to try out, in place of my CJ Premier 16 LS2 tube preamp (which I love). It's strange timing in a way: after all these years I'd only recently gotten in to tube rolling - trying different tubes in my power amps and preamp. It's been fascinating hearing the sonic differences available and it DOES scratch that "I get to influence the s0und in the way I like" tweak factor.

On the other hand...it can get too tweaky. Also, the tube factor: My CJ preamp always starts of super quiet but after time starts developing a level of tube rush. Nothing that interferes with the music, but it's there. Plus, it uses SIX tubes, so tube replacement and especially tube rolling is EXPENSIVE.

Further, when using the Bryston 4B3 power amp, despite that the sound was harder than I like, there was a certain purity of tone that was attractive, instrumental timbre rendered a bit more precisely. Since the tube pre-amp/SS power amp thing has never worked to my liking I decided to try the reverse, hence the purchase of the Benchmark LA4 preamp - probably among the best measuring/lowest distortion amplification devices in existence.

I've found the Benchmark pre/CJ power amp combo to be very agreeable! It does in many instances seem a "best of both worlds" combo. The tube amp sound is definitely there, not lost at all, still glorious. But there is a slightly higher purity and transparency with the tube pre-amp removed. Cymbals for instance have never sounded more real and metallic. The teeniest trails of reverb or the most minute details don't escape this combo - it can sound shockingly transparent. The sound tightened up somewhat too. It's really glorious.

Plus, I love hearing zero hiss coming from my speakers, and the idea of doing away with at least some portion of the "tube hassle" in my system is attractive. (I'm fine still dealing with my Premier 12 tubes, the tube rolling has been very gratifying there).

It's been a while since I put the CJ preamp back in to the system, which I'll do soon. But the cons with the Benchmark preamp vs the tube preamp are a slight loss of the "breath of life" from the tube amp, which tends to give a slight glow and textural presence and body to the sound, at the expense of a slight homogenizing.

I think if I had the Benchmark SS preamp in the system for a long time and put in the tube preamp I'd go "WOW, that sounds more impressive more real!" But when I'm used to the tube pre-amp and put in the more transparent SS preamp, I think "WOW, listen to how CLEAN and clear that is! Amazing!"

Basically I'm just having fun with different sounds.

Not sure yet if I'll be selling the Benchmark or the CJ preamp.

 

Go Class D young man and you'll never look back.



M~

 

Thanks, but the A/B wagon train I’m ridin now is moving at a pretty quick pace.

 

OMG

 

Okay, so you disagree no big deal! Life is like that, not everyone likes or agrees with you. Anyway, it's an inside joke.

M~

 

I find this interesting to read. I'm getting closer to wanting to move away from the expense and hassle of tube amps. Now that I can actually measure I was shocked to find out that my output tubes were only going about 1,100 hours. Slapped in a new set this weekend and yep, the old ones were about done. The highs were rolled off. They weren't creating the tube rush that I'm used to hearing at the end of their life.

A hybrid pre, JFET and tubes, was the most recent transition a few years ago and that may stay as the tubes are reasonably priced and not much option for rolling beyond current production. Plus they are supposed to be good for 4k hours. So while I'm not ready, the thought has been in the back of my mind as something that will happen in the future. Luckily the future isn't now as I'm listening to Rossini's Il Barbiere di Siviglia and loving the experience.

 

I’ve no particular ‘loyalty’ to one or the other and when I have bounced back and forth it has been based on an individual amplifier that caught my ear. My current speakers are designed to be bi-amped so SS on the woofer columns and tubes on the uppers. About every five years I have to drop $1,500 on new tubes. SS aren’t without ongoing cost either. Had the bass amp recapped at about the same $1,500 …. though that was after 25 years.

 

That Accuphase P-6100 should be a wonderful sounding amp.

 

One of the advantages l find of SS is that if l want to listen to a few tracks before work- push the standby button on the amplifier and we are offski.

 

I started with better than mass electronic back in 1982 my first better stereo was Halfer quickly progressing to lower end Conrad Johnson then up range CJ followed by Audio Research up through their current Reference gear and now all Pass Labs.
My move is based on several things, first reliability of current tubes and associated gear. Second since I’m semi retired I listen a lot more now (between 4-5 hours a day) and the cost of replacement tube sets are becoming prohibitively expensive, retubing the last ARC amp was $2400 a set and had to be done every 2000-2500 hours.
Lastly I prefer the speed and detail that Pass gear provides without sacrificing the imaging that tubes offers up.
If you have very efficient speakers and can make do with a lower power amp then that’s a different scenario but if you need 100’s of watts tubes are not the answer.

 

I agree with this approach. But to do this is but half a step. The Full Monty is to go active on the speakers.

 

Along a similar branch of @MattHooper's above post, though flipped on its head, until recently, I had never used a tube component over ~45 years of developing systems. I was quite happy with the sound produced by the SS amps, mostly integrated, that I have owned. That would include, to name just a few, an original Bryston 4B, Pass Aleph3, Accuphase E-303x, Jeff Rowland Concentra, HEGEL H160, and GATO AMP-150.

I understood, of course, that tube components produced a different type of sound, but never felt as though I was really missing anything, and had no interest in the related hassles. Then, recently, I decided to dip a toe into the large, tube component pool. I say a toe because I purchased a hybrid integrated, with a Class A tube linestage. I won't go into detail here, but suffice to say that it is the best amp I have ever owned. To be clear, I have no idea to what degree the (two dual-triode) tubes are influencing the sound, in large part because the amp is beautifully designed, and its sum is undoubtedly greater than any of the individual parts (or aspects of the topology).

I doubt very seriously that I will ever feel the desire to go whole hog into tubes, though, and partly for the reasons that have been well covered by others. In addition, I don't see what incentive there might be if I believe that I am, in a sense, now enjoying the best of both worlds.

 

Although I fully appreciate active speakers (my A/V system Elacs) I do believe my mains are sort of “Musically Magical” when driven properly.

 

Presuming D Class is more SS than Tube. ..
...was too heavy too hot and too much stuffing about.

 

I like the way how you explained it. There is something I may want to add and also might be in the back of your mind. If you agree that one of the main factor why you still have your CJ setup for throughout these years (20 years) is you already heard the satisfaction and proven in the test of time that it is your setup liking. Can it be also you didn't tube role that setup for the longest via' at the same time, the solid state owners has no option to change sound flavor internally in their amp that will cause interruptions instead of fulfilling a satisfaction and moving forward to the next area in your high fidelity that needs improvement.. What are your thoughts?
Edited and added:
This subject has a probable long term advantage and not be taken as cons.

 

Power, headroom, transient response, bass and convenience.

 

VTL, for one.


The fire extinguisher was placed there as a prop for a gag about small speakers catching on fire.

 

VTL ?

 

There are just so many good sounds to be had, both tubed and solid state. A good amp and preamp of either technology (or mixed technology) can offer holographic imaging and realism. Tubes, or should I say triodes, definitely have an advantage if you like warmth, as they create mostly second harmonic. Pentodes and mosfets are roughly equivalent in their transfer characteristics and therefore, their harmonic spectrum. A lot of what makes a design great is (the often hugely overused term) synergy. It's not the individual devices inside, but the way they combine (or cancel) distortion, the way feedback is applied (or not) and how it interacts with the source and loudspeaker.
If you have speakers that aren't very efficient or are an unforgiving load, solid state definitely can drive them better as a more perfect voltage source.
If you like efficient, single driver systems like Lowthers, a higher output impedance like a low or no feedback tube amp provides can be magic and bring out the best in the system.
Of course music selection has a lot to do with it too. I personally like the slam that a solid state amp can provide for highly dynamic orchestral or rock music.
There is something magic about jazz on a good tubed system.
I think that tubes for voltage gain, paired with a solid state output stage, might be the best of all worlds. I have heard many say that they enjoy a tube preamp matched up with a solid state amp.

 

Not sure, maybe. I was really satisfied with my amplification and had put any upgrades or changes in to speakers. It was playing around with the solid state amp more recently that piqued my interest in a slightly different sound from the amplification. As in "I've had the same sound for 20 years, I wouldn't mind a change." The problem is if I stray much from it, I don't enjoy the system as much. In fact one of the things that has kept me from ever switching to solid state amplification in my system is that when I'd put in the SS amp I'd go "wow, neat" and tick off some audiophile boxes, but over time I just stopped wanting go listen go the system. It happened every single time. In fact, one time my tube amps weren't working, I didn't have the time or money to get them fixed, so I just threw a (good) Harman Kardon amp in to the system. It sounded "fine" but after a while my listening waned, until I barely listened at all.
I actually started coming to the conclusion that maybe I just had lost interest in the whole high end audio thing. Then I decided to start selling some of my stuff including the CJ amps. But I had to get the CJ amps fixed first before selling them. Once they came back from the distributor fixed I threw them in to the system just to make sure they worked before putting them on the market.

And I was utterly mesmerized. Pinned to my chair. That sound was back. Instead of trying to force myself to listen, I couldn't stop listening, just like old times. No way could I sell them, and I was right back in to listening to my system again (and as much as ever these days). I actually had to learn that lesson, almost the same way, more than once.

 

I have switched to solid state for the purposes of saving power, reducing heat, and not worrying about tube life or reliability, but it doesn’t stick. I prefer the sound of the tube amp, and keep going back to it. That looseness in the bass is a positive. I don’t even use the subwoofers with the tube amp. They stay connected to the solid state amp even when it is otherwise not connected.

 

Hi.. Prior to joining here at SHF little over a year, I been using tube amps since the mid 80's with EL34 and KT88. The dynaco EL34 was my longest amp roughly 16 years then followed by Yaqin kt88 that was totally customized since 2011. then I moved to 300b for the first time with an exotic tube with push pull circuit. Luckily and all that time, the
preamp section tube that I been using was always 12at7 and I have a very few selection (if needed). But my main heart preamp sound was found on the 1950's Raytheon 12at7. Once upon a time I probably have 20 of these all brand new in the box. After a while, it got used up and getting thinner in supplies and was harder to get new ones anymore so I had the chance to try and find a different tube to stock up. As a replacement, I found these sylvanias so I had the chance to grab 12 which is all new and hopefully these will last me for quite a while.
Sure there are more better sounding tubes than these. Since I already found my sound, I'm a bit reluctant to tube roll with a new and possibly better sounding preamp tube. Why? because nowadays, I wont be able to afford to buy and test driving new ones especially like a telefunken,. so and so forth. It can also be a frustration on my end, spending all that money, tube rolling and discovering new sound on my preamp, while not getting it nor the satisfaction that might lead to a sudden decision and end up selling my amp in untimely manner. The worst situation I don't wanna see myself is getting stuck with nothing in the end while knowing I had something really good in the palm of my hand then lost it. I try to do my best in keeping my amp running smoothly (well oiled) by checking and maintaining the conditions of my tubes every 6 months and "tube cycling" especially the outputs lets say it requires 4 output tube, I tube roll 6 of them to assure that my amp is always perfectly balanced and consistent. I believe whether I have a high dollar Solid State or Tube amp, I have an obligation to make it sound at its best by doing all the maintenance that's necessary and keeping it on tip top shape. Otherwise, I wont hear the golden sound of my amp and I'd be better off and more satisfied in listening to an "okay amp" that's running in A1 condition.
So far in the bowl of over 30 years with tube amp, besides "the fixing and learning" things about my amp and whole system, I find it pretty consistent and overall its a very pleasurable experience. I have learned and still learning so much throughout the years and I'm adopting all these knowledge in my amp today. Owning the Fluxion 300b amp in little over a year, I find it to be fulfilling and exciting to listen to every day. I can say "I never had any bad day" yet... I hope it stays that way for the longest.
This is just an example of what I do.

Fluxion LV-14 Tube Rolling and Condition
300B Output Tubes Left to Right 1-2-3-4
12AT7 Tubes Left to Right 2-3
6CG7 Tubes Left to Right 1-4
___________________________________
December 30 2020
Install All New 4-300B, 2-12AT7, 2-6CG7
___________________________________
June 6 2021
300B Tube Check
1-65
2-61
3-64.5
4-65

Install 2 new on
1-65
2-65
Roll
3-65
4-65
___________________________________
December 19 2021
300B Tube Check
1-66
2-66
3-67
4-66

Install 2 new on
1-67
2-66
Roll
3-66
4-65
___________________________________
As you can see, the readings on my tubes are close to 5% or lower. So I know I have a better chance in getting the optimum sound of my amp.
Hope this helps...

 

I never felt comfortable running power tubes. Always worried something was going to go wrong. Had a power tube red plate once; luckily I turned the amp off right away and there was no damage done.

I also like to leave my amp on. That way, if I have a half hour or an hour where I am free, I can listen. But you can't leave a tube amp on all the time, and I wouldn't power one up to listen for a short period. So it kind of gets in the way of listening. It doesn't make listening easier.

They sound great though. Can't argue with that. I have a hybrid integrated now. Kind of provides the best of both worlds. I may stick with my hybrid integrated long-term, since it sounds great. But I have two other options I am considering, as a possible move in four or five years time:

- Separates powering my Spendor A3. Probably an ARC SP16 or a Conrad Johnson preamp into a SS power amp or possibly a tube amp. I like the idea of moving to separates in the long run and I'd want tubes in at least the preamp.
- a SET tube amp powering my AN AX-Two, or some other easy to drive speaker. But I already own the AX-Two, so I would likely stay with them.

The whole notion of what to run, SS or tubes, of course you have to choose in large part based on what speakers the amp is connected to. With some speakers, tubes simply aren't ideal. So don't try to fit a square peg into a round hole. I think a lot of people are guilty of doing this, including me in the recent past.

So then, if I am going to go for tubes again, someday, I think the best bet is to go with an easy to drive speaker and a low powered SET amp, or at most maybe something like an EL84 p/p design. I mean, if one wants the tube sound then get the tube sound. Not a neutered version of it, like you'd probably get powering 4 ohm speakers that are 88 dB efficient with a higher powered p/p tube amp. Yeah, that can sound great - I've done it. The sound I had doing this was better than with SS amps, but not by a lot, and the sound signature was quite similar. Now, I am comparing against some nice SS gear (Sugden especially, Classe, even Naim in certain respects), but if the difference is slight then I don't see the point in running tubes. Of course, I haven't tried every combination so I'm not saying it's not possible to achieve audio nirvana doing this. It just seems like you are swimming against the current to do it.

In addition, I have read many comments on the sound of modern tube amps, and often the observation with an amp is that it doesn't have that classic tubey sound, that it sounds a lot more like SS than one would think. I have to wonder then, what is the point? If I ever buy a tube amp again, it'll probably be a Decware, Finale, ANK, or something along those lines. Definitely something that sounds, unmistakably, like a tube amp.

 

My first big solid state amp was a MosFet. I built one from scratch from a hi fidelity magazine ads when I was going to electronic school during the wars for the first 100wpc mosfet 1981. Featuring the Motorola J's and I heard it on a live demo. Talk about punch! then the rest of other companies came out with their own version but in reality they were all pretty the same it s just a reverse engineering and calling it their own.
Thanks to "Dave" and I was able to get my hands on one today which is a classic Perreaux 100wpc. Its all completely restored and just exactly the sound on how those mosfet amps came out long ago. I love everything about it, but I cannot compare it to a tube amp. They have their own personality and purpose. As long as theyre both running in tip top shape, there is nothing better or best on my personal take.

 

Yeah, the permutations are plentiful and yet the finding of magical is rare. If you have found that then never let it go.

I felt a little silly after broaching active amps in speakers. Who am I kidding about that? NOBODY in audiophilia goes down that path. It could have come across as virtue-signaling a esoteric, elitist approach to audio. It’s just a hobby. Well, whatever, it sounded wrong to me. Mea culpa.