Those that returned to SS after owning tubes/valves, why the return?

Clark Griswold as an audiophile!

 

I missed your reply.. If ever ever plan to take a peak on full tube amps again, I suggest you may wanna take a look at an amp like a Primaluna or some equivalent amps with an adaptive auto-bias. Its a actually a break through as far as tube and amp long life and performance...
Happy Friday to Everyone!

 

... Which part in your equipment list blows away the reliability of a Primaluna amp?

 

Where did he say anything about PL? He just said that tubes can and will fail. PL has nothing to do with that.

 

I have no experience with or opinion of Primaluna equipment (other than being surprised at some of the high output impedances of their designs even running ultralinear). But tubes will fail, regardless of the equipment they're used in, and the QC on a lot of current production tubes can be iffy. No piece of gear you buy is going to change that. In fact, if you search on this forum "Primaluna tube dead" you'll find posts about tubes failing and taking out components in the bias circuitry of their Primaluna amps. It's not like spectacular or catastrophic tube failure continually frequently happens with all tube gear all the time. But it does happen. And, you know, given threads like these -- Suspected tube failure on PrimaLuna ProLogue Four -- there's no reason to presume that Primaluna's gear is immune from that reality.

 

Tube amps are not impervious to problems - and when they blow they can take out other components. But I remember buying the flagship well-reviewed (at the time) Pioneer Elite and got it home turned it on and it was DOA. Took it back to the store and they replaced it.

Remote control on my Marantz surround sound receiver no longer works - the motorized volume control needs to be turned by hand. Get it fixed? Cheaper to buy a whole new receiver.

An 845 tube blew in my LM 219IA and put on a nice light show. Tube was replaced under warranty. Chances are if it last 6 months it will last.

I had to replace a preamp tube in my OTO ($8) in about year 8. 20,000 hours on it and all the EL84s are fine. The Manual states that they should last 8,000 hours. They state 6,000 hours for my 2a3 monoblocks and for my preamp they state 5 years (as they expect you will just leave it on 24/7). The DAC tube is listed as 100,000 hours for the 0.1x (11 years 24/7)

The problem here is similar to my first go-round with these tube amplifiers - I could have purchased an inferior sounding Bryston with a 20-year warranty and gobs of power and low THD numbers or I could have purchased the unknown brand (at that time) with 10 watts and a 2-year warranty. Then we sat and listened to both and I almost became a bit jaded as if to say "they have to sell you a 20-year warranty because they certainly can't sell you on the sound!"

The problem with some of the jack of all trade amplifiers or added features is that they often don't do anything particularly well. Yes if Amp A has UL and Triode mode and hi/lo feedback - or you can pop in a KT 150 and KT 88 and EL34. All of this is fun but if Amp B, which only does 300B, sounds much much better than any setting or permutation of Amp A then, in the end, you have better sound and with fewer things likely to go wrong.

 

Hey all,
New poster to the forums. Longtime reader and participant in other forums since 2005.

I have gone back and forth between using vaccum tube & solid state amplification over the years. My personal philosophy has always been to start with the loudspeakers and work the rest of the system around them. This approach may not work for everyone.

Used to be the type who would ONLY run vintage tube gear. Stromberg Carlson, Fisher, HK, EICO, etc. I started to really see what else was out there when I sprung for a Rogue Cronus in its original iteration. It shipped with Svetlana EL34 I believe. Lots of tube rolling and experimenting and then, I decided I wanted more power.
I had purchased an old Mosfet Hitachi with the thought of modifying it. I did, by beefing up the power supply rectifier to a 15A bridge (stock was 6A) and I was happy for awhile.

Tried STASIS by Nakamichi for a bit too, those amps power Vandersteens very well. Used a passive pre.

Currently loving my Yamaha 2100 integrated. It is just great.

Downstairs rig is all DIY, the S5 electronics kit amp 16LS, with its 16wpc class-A 6005W outputs pushing the Fostex FF105WK in the bass reflex enclosure.

I keep a smaller Yamaha 501 amp for parties with some Dali Oberon 3 which is a superb speaker.

That being said, I am currently planning to build a nice push pull 807 amplifier, no holds barred. So for me, it can truly be both types of power.

 

20,000 is a lot for a preamp tube which is great. The farthest I went is 9,000 and that's still a lot. But this only happens on a I believe it was a mallard and old eico tube is probably a mallard too on an EL84.
KT88 I got 3,300 hrs but I dial it warm..
What I wanna try in the primaluna is a kt120. But being said, I hard use that amp right now. I wanna ship it to my other house in asia. I have to run it 220 vac.......

 

That's why I said if I ever go back to tubes it's going to be a SET amp into HE speakers. Or at most an EL84 p/p. I've done the 30-40 watt EL34/KT88 p/p tube amp thing. They sound great, don't get me wrong. But the difference from a nice SS amp is marginal. Maybe if I was running really HE speakers, but even into my AX-Two the difference just wasn't large enough. If I'm going to deal with tubes I want all the magic that they have to offer. It's either that or I stick with some tubes in the chain (preamp and phonostage) running into a good SS power amp and then into Harbeth or Spendor speakers, because those have a bit of magic of their own. There is a bit of a power requirement there that favors a SS power amp (or a higher powered tube amp). In my mind I have thoughts of one day running an ARC preamp feeding an Exposure power amp.

Anyways, let's give SS some props. It's come a long way and a lot of them don't sound fatiguing or objectionable at all. I think these designers are generally smart people. Just like with digital, they have figured out how to make their amps sound refined, transparent, and holographic.

 

I agree. It's kind of like do it right or don't bother. But the problem is that doing it right often comes with an uncomfortable price tag. I prefer the AN J or the Pureaudio Project to any Harbeth or Spendor and they're much easier to drive and are full range. Well easy enough to drive from a SET anyway. As much as I like the AX Two there is only so much that can be asked out of such a speaker.

I always get the appeal of tube pre and SS power but I also think it slightly defeats the point. Albeit I make the case as well going with an AN M1 or M2 and then adding a Class D amplifier - I had the M1 with Wyred4Sound mAmps for 4 months and it's a great match for $5k combined. But I still view it as a compromise in that yes this will, probably, beat all PP tube integrated amps for $5k. But then it's also not really a SET system with the same kind of advantageous signature. It's sort of a set-up where I say "this is probably the best one can do for $5k and still leaves an upgrade path."

I'd still prefer the Meishu Tonmeister (or M2 preamp and P3 Tonmesiter Power amp) as kind of an elite calibre 300B. Save an extra year or two over the $5k amps. Sell a kidney or something

 

Probably like many, I have a mental block about moving to Class D. I'd have to listen to it in my system first. That option probably sounds great though, because I know how picky you are. $5K is personally more than I'd want to spend. I can get an ARC SP16L for about $1,500 and an Exposure amp for about $1,000. Selling my integrated would pretty much pay for that. Whether they'd be a good impedance match or not, well, I'd have to look into that first. Lot of amp options out there though.

I don't mind non-full range speakers. I can always connect my sub if I want the deepest bass. Subs with DSP can give you flat bass response, and you can put the sub where it sounds best. I always think, if you run full range speakers that go down to 30 Hz, you can't control that bass the way you can with a good sub. Plus, the bass might not sound the best from the same place in the room that the mids and highs sound the best. When you mention jack of all trades, that's kind of what a full range speaker is, no? Or you can get a smaller speaker that excels in the mids and highs, and then a sub that excels with bass. My Spendor A3 speakers go down to I think 70 Hz +/- 3dB (45 Hz +/- 6 dB). They are floorstanders though, and certainly sound like they go deep enough. I don't really miss bass when I listen to them. But I know, especially in my small room, a sub is the ideal tool for low bass. I think the Spendors sound beautiful but I just need them elevated a bit, so I have plinths coming for that.

I think this is where my focus is going to be...maximize the performance of the speakers I already have with proper set up, room treatments, a well integrated sub, and then one day move to separates. I still have work to do to squeeze out more performance from what I already have. I can imagine that moving to separates would be a very meaningful upgrade, and the used market would allow me to do it with very little if any extra cost. Moving to a SET based system has my attention, but it would be a big change and I'd have to overhaul everything. And it is possibly a big expense as you point out. I have a small room - Decware DM945 speakers might be a good fit if I ever move in this direction, and they are very affordable.

Just as a side note, I'm turned off by preamps and integrated amps that don't include a remote. I need to be able to change the volume at least. But it seems many high end preamps out there do not include a remote. A lot of the AN stuff, correct me if I am wrong, doesn't include a remote. It's really just a personal preference thing I guess but I listen to a lot of radio, and depending on what comes on I'm sure I make more volume adjustments than most people who only listen to vinyl or CD. But even when I listen to vinyl and CD, I usually listen to every track and I don't love every song equally. So I make adjustments there too. Not sure how so many people can get along without a remote!

 

I have a couple of SS amps that provide all the pros of high end tubes without any of the the cons of tubes. Hence, I have written off tubes forever.

 

The only thing I could probably add is that when you go to a better speaker the drivers are better - so the AN J is vastly better than the AX Two in the Midrange and Treble - adding a sub to the AX Two may add more bass but it doesn't improve the quality of the AX Two itself. Although I do agree with the idea that the best position for bass isn't necessarily the best position for the midrange and treble.

The remote control is important to some people - from computer playback, however, I can control the volume in the media player from my mouse. So I set the volume on the preamp for vinyl/CD and then when I use the computer I have full volume control. Since I have to get up to put on a record or CD anyway - while I am there I can adjust the preamp volume control.

I have never been a big fan of ARC, to be honest - in My direct AB comparisons, I chose a SS preamp over them. Granted I sold the SS preamp a couple of years later as well.

Yes, AN has a remote control on their older preamps - M Zero and M1 can be had second hand for $1k-$2k with or without phono stages. The current Cobra also has remote.



Lampizator's review of the M-Zero - granted it's not like they sold anywhere in the numbers of an ARC so finding one will probably be difficult - a second-hand shop here had one but the second-hand prices in Hong Kong tend to be a little too high for my liking. I believe it was selling for $1200 USD when they were only $699 new back in 2002. Still, I actually like the style of the older Zero to their newer zero series. I greatly prefer the old zero casework to all of their new stuff. As can be seen here M-zero

 

Yeah, I'll definitely look at other preamps when the time comes, including those AN models that come with a remote. Buying used, a lot will depend on what is out there and what power amp I opt to run. Even with ARC, while there are many preamps to choose from, I am not interested in most of the ones that are for sale.

I'm not sure whether I am a big fan of the ARC sound. I'd have to hear more of their equipment to determine that. Maybe what impressed me was just hearing what separates can do and not so much what an ARC can do. But I thought it sounded excellent, and it was a great preamp to interact with. And a lot of the sound of course depends on the other components in the chain.

 

I would love to know which SS amps they are ?

 

Here's one affordable amp I have that's very tubey in the mids/ mid centric, has solid grunt on the low end, etc (carries every pro of both tubes and SS)....first 25 watts class A.

Zhongshen (jungson) class A chinese amp (affordable). JungSon JA-1/JA-99C Class A balanced Preamp+Power Amplifier Ver.Standard 20th : China-hifi-Audio audiophile tube amplifier online store, Willsenton, Boyuurange Reisong, Muzishare Integrated Amplifier, power amp, preamp, SoundArtist Speaker for sale [MUIA9831017] - $1,348.36 USD

 

That looks like a pretty piss poor solder joint on D401!

 

I don't do "high end" anymore, but back in around Y2K a Pass Aleph 3 out "tubed" sound wise a CJ MV55 and a Cary SLA 70 in my system.

 

Can't believe I am starting to think this way. Man, I listen and should be loving it but the organic magic is missing, truth be told. Even with a great tube preamp and smooth class A power amp the sound can be sterile at times.

 

It's hard when you know what you are missing. I was listening to my SS room system the other night and it just seemed so narrow and less involving. It does have a lower noise floor though.

 

Even when you have it, the magic comes and goes. Source of course but it's hard to explain. Avanti touched on it before, but if you can find it even temporarily it tells you it's there to work with.

 

I said earlier that while I prefer tubes, SS has its place.
Some boxes showed up today, for instance...

 

Same here.

Purely subjective, of course, because "the point" is any individual's goal.

But I find that the essence of tube amp sound that I like so much comes from the tube power amps, much less from the pre-amps. When I've tried SS amps with any number of tube pre-amps, the system always took on an obvious solid state character (made me "tense up" listening rather than relax). As I've mentioned, I currently have the solid state Benchmark LA4 substituting for my CJ Premier 16LS2 tube preamp, and the combination for me is far more enjoyable than the SS power/tube pre. This combo combined the super clean sound of the pre-amp, zero tube-like grain or glow, but with the richness, body and organic feel that comes from the tube amps.

 

If you get the opportunity, listen to either a Circle Labs A200 and/or Riviera Levante. Both are hybrid integrated designs, and I'd be quite surprised if anyone were to tense up while listening to them!

 

I firmly believe this after having tried many components over the last decade. This hobby isn't centered around a Sony Walkman/Discman, or an iPod; devices where you simply plug in a pair of headphones and you're done. Or a boombox, where it is what it is. Instead we build systems that consist of multiple components. Sometimes consisting of up to five different components (table + phonostage or digital source + DAC > preamp > power amp > speakers), all connected by cables. And then there is the room interaction, which is just as much a factor (if not more) than the other items. And what these systems produce is basically an illusion but we want it to be hauntingly real. We are basically expecting perfection, but what if all the ingredients that create the illusion aren't perfect?

With all those variables I feel the illusion is tenuous at best. If something isn't quite right then the final outcome will suffer. If one or more components isn't a great match, if there are set up issues, if the room is poor - the illusion falls apart. This is part of the reason why people are always making changes, and why most of the systems I hear (including my own much of the time) don't necessarily leave me stunned every single time I hit play or drop the needle. They may sound great, but it's like a solid double instead of a grant slam home run.

This is why I believe, as I said earlier, you have to work with what you have. Don't try to fit a round peg into a square hole. If I want to build a system around tubes, then I'll go all in with tubes and get HE speakers and a SET amp. If I want to build a system around lower efficiency speakers, then go with SS. But if I go with SS then embrace what SS can do - ease, scale, grip, dynamics. So, instead of using a SS amp that is kind of puny, where I would get the weaknesses of a tube amp with the weaknesses of a SS amp, go for a SS amp that has less compromises on what SS does well.

The above is not to say that you can't have a p/p tube amp or a moderate power SS amp that can produce magic. I am sure those systems exist. But I think what I am saying is, both SS and tubes have the ability to create magic depending on what you are looking for. You just have to take what they do best and build on that to maximize that potential. And when you find magic just stop, because when you mess with perfection the result isn't going to be greater perfection - it will 99.99% of the time be wors

Anyways, this is kind of where my head is at as I contemplate where I want to take my system some day down the road. No more sideways moves for me - any changes I am going to make from now on will be clear upgrades that are planned well in advance. But for now I am happy on 2nd base - I feel like my system is a solid line drive, stand up double and it always feels good to hit one of those.