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Tim Buckley: Album by Album, note for note appreciation

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by lemonade kid, Oct 20, 2020.

  1. It’s possible that Driftin’ was overdubbed in the studio. Either that or two different live takes were grafted together. Did they play two sets per night over two nights? Incidentally, there appears to be a strong West Country slant to these discussions.
     
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  2. mameyama

    mameyama Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Wiltshire, UK
    Driftin'

    Apart from the Lorca/Live at the Troubadour/Venice Mating Call version, there is a second version of Driftin' from the Troubadour concerts on Greetings From West Hollywood. This is a very different version however, and its last minute and a half are nothing like the end of Driftin' on Lorca.

    For the 2 days at the Troubadour there were 2 sets per night, and possibly an afternoon "warm-up show" to check the recording equipment. Of the released tracks, there are 3 versions of 5 of the songs, so quite possibly there is an additional take of Driftin' that hasn't been released and the last minute and a half on Lorca was grafted in from that.

    PS Yes, I'm just 8 miles from Swindon.
     
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  3. There’s someone from Royal Wootton Bassett who’s a regular here too.
     
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  4. gazatthebop

    gazatthebop Forum Resident

    Location:
    manchester
    I think the track on Lorca is nearer 4% slower. There also seems to be small edits, nothing added but the odd half a second removed here and there near the end when compared to the live at the troubadour 1969 version.
     
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  5. mameyama

    mameyama Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Wiltshire, UK
    Thanks. Interesting. I'm still confused though. The last verse on the Lorca version omits the following lyrics:
    "I went to sea,
    Mama,"
    Also the phrasing on the "out" part of "Like a Dream out on the sea" sounds completely different.
    Do you think they made these and other changes in the studio? Cheers.
     
  6. lemonade kid

    lemonade kid Forever Changing Thread Starter

    Location:
    MidCoast...Maine
    Or a Nor'easterly direction....:tiphat:
     
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  7. lemonade kid

    lemonade kid Forever Changing Thread Starter

    Location:
    MidCoast...Maine
    So..if I read this aright...the LP track, which would be a live in studio take, is 4% slower. That would seem to my mind be a performance variation (not an editing tape speed thing? right?). And the "edit" of certain lyrics would be a choice that Tim seems to make every time he performs a particular song, an improv thing?

    Carnival Song from Dream Letter:Live in London bears no resemblance to the Goodbye & Hello track. Tim must have had an aversion to ever play any particular song the same way twice.

    >>Speaking of Carnival Song:
    We have been wondering here how much of an influence Lennon's Being For The Benefit Of Mr. Kite influenced Tim and Larry 's carnival atmosphere on their song.

    Last night I was reading the liner notes on the recent release: "Lady Give Me your Key". Contained within the liner notes is an interview with Beckett & Jerry Yester.
    Larry reveals the history when asked about Carnival Song:


    Larry: Probably under the spell of "Being For The Benefit Of Mr. Kite" and some Dylan-esque lyrics, like "I Want You," but that's Tim's composition.


    :righton:
     
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  8. lemonade kid

    lemonade kid Forever Changing Thread Starter

    Location:
    MidCoast...Maine
    Tim seems to always make changes to his/Larry's lyrics & approach every time he repeats a song, live or in studio.
    Always a surprise and adventure.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2020 at 2:12 PM
  9. mameyama

    mameyama Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Wiltshire, UK
    Lemonade Kid, the versions of Driftin' found on Lorca, Live at the Troubadour and Venice Mating Call are all the SAME performance. The differences are in the mix. On Lorca, they have slowed-down and edited the tape.

    Thanks for clarifying the influences on Carnival Song.

    The Carnival Song on Dream Letter is a different song, it just happens to have been given the same title by the compilers of Dream Letter. Introducing the song, Tim talks about carnivals and says "You got to write a carnival song". But a more correct title for that song would probably be "Improvisation on Hi Lily Hi Lo".
    You are quite right that he had an aversion to playing songs the same way twice, particularly during the period 1968 to 1972. That's what makes all the live performances so vital. Cheers.
     
  10. gazatthebop

    gazatthebop Forum Resident

    Location:
    manchester


    "Driftin'" on "Lorca" is a live in concert track from the Troubadour shows. The same tape was used for the "Live at the Troubadour " 1969 release, there's something like a 3.8% difference in speed between the too. The Lorca version runs slower.


     
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  11. lemonade kid

    lemonade kid Forever Changing Thread Starter

    Location:
    MidCoast...Maine
    Thanks for the clarifications....I misread the Driftin' posts, and thought we were talking specifically about "Lorca" the track.
     
  12. Williamson

    Williamson Forum Resident

    You're not Andy Partridge are you?
     
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  13. mameyama

    mameyama Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Wiltshire, UK
    Not to worry, I guess we were just driftin' yesterday
     
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  14. mameyama

    mameyama Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Wiltshire, UK
    No, I'm not. But Dave Simms might be- he lives in Swindon.
    Does Andy Partridge like Tim Buckley? To his credit I know he's a massive fan of Judee Sill- love her music.
     
  15. lemonade kid

    lemonade kid Forever Changing Thread Starter

    Location:
    MidCoast...Maine
    Yes! Judee would be a perfect candidate for a future album/track by track!
     
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  16. lemonade kid

    lemonade kid Forever Changing Thread Starter

    Location:
    MidCoast...Maine
    track 2) Anonymous Proposition

    A seamless two track side with Lorca. I admit they combine to form a difficult listen at times,
    but when in the right setting (usually a solitary listen), I love these two. In fact at this moment
    I am enjoying just sharing the youtube play...lovin' it.

    An easier listen than the title track.

    A very personal experience that is best heard with headphones, as no one else in
    my house usually wants to hear it. A strangely lovely track, if dissonant--with rather unusual lyrics, to say the least.
    But then the song title kinda tells it all.

    :righton:
    A sad lonely kind of love song to my mind.


    Underwood is so great here as he weaves in and around Tim's vocal work.




    [Like Lorca, surprising to see so few lyrics....I thought there were far more to this long track.]

    Love me as if someday you'd hate me
    For what i give is yours without a name
    To fill your night long needs
    Only as long as you say

    This time you'll learn that love is just a slave
    To where the heart beats stronger
    This time you'd need in turn or promise forever
    I could have been a boy from long ago you've left forgotten
    And lately you've wondered where he's gone

    Oh, it's never hold to me not as long as love lives in this house
    Take me after all you've lost and never wanted
    Somewhere between all the nights you've tasted wine of men forever
    Until they left you to wake alone

    Aw, but it's never said to me
    Not when the years live in these hours
    And darling love me as if someday you'd hate me
    For what i am is here in front of you longing to know
    How long you'd care for me

    This time you'll learn that love is just a slave
    To where your heart beats stronger
    That's where you stay
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2020 at 7:44 AM
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  17. mameyama

    mameyama Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Wiltshire, UK
    Brilliant idea. Judee after Tim. A small discography but so much to chew on, both in her music and life.
    I understand there is a documentary on her in post-production. Hope to see that.
     
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  18. There was a Radio 4 documentary a while back - still available on BBC Sounds.

    features Andy Partridge (not me)

    The Lost Genius of Judee Sill - BBC Sounds
     
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  19. mameyama

    mameyama Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Wiltshire, UK
    Thanks for that- can't get enough Judee.
     
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  20. mameyama

    mameyama Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Wiltshire, UK
    Anonymous Proposition

    I think this is Tim's bravest song on the bravest side of music he ever released- or was it career suicide, he never charted again after Blue Afternoon.
    I got into the first track Lorca pretty quick- there is so much in the organ and piano to cling onto. But AP took me so much longer- its just so..... slow. This just doesn't work as background music, you have to be fully absorbed.

    Tim wrote this song for Marlene Dietrich- or so he claimed. Lee said that perhaps the most astonishing performance he ever heard from Tim was him performing AP a cappella at Carnegie Hall- shame they didn't record that one.
     
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  21. mameyama

    mameyama Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Wiltshire, UK
    Anonymous Proposition- Live

    One of the highlights of 2017 was the appearance of a live version of Anonymous Proposition, recorded at the Troubadour just a couple of weeks before the studio version.
    Again it bears little relation to the studio version musically and lyrically, so can be enjoyed as a song in its own right. Much easier to listen to, and so so beautiful.

     
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  22. I’ve just been comparing the two versions of Driftin’. The two songs definitely diverge from about the 6:30 (Lorca) and 6:05 (Live at The Troubadour 1969) marks, for the last 2 minutes of the song.

    The vocals and lead guitar are noticeably different, whereas everything up to then seems the same performance (apart from the speed). So, I suspect that a different ending for the Lorca album was grafted on - either from a different Troubadour version or a studio overdub.

    Other opinions are welcome here - this has been puzzling me for years.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2020 at 10:14 AM
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  23. mameyama

    mameyama Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Wiltshire, UK
    This has been puzzling me too. Its definitely the same performance up to the times you give. Yesterday Gaz suggested that the end was changed through editing. But I tend to concur with you because the lyrics, vocalizations and backing do seem like a different version. As it's all sonically of a piece, I tend to think that it can't be a studio overdub and must be grafted in from another Troubadour version.
    But I really don't have the ears or knowledge to say anything with certainty. Maybe it will have to remain a mystery.
     
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  24. lemonade kid

    lemonade kid Forever Changing Thread Starter

    Location:
    MidCoast...Maine
    Wow...that Carnegie Hall performance would be amazing to have heard!
    Of course any live performance of Tim would be a once in a lifetime event ...I never had the supreme pleasure.
     
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  25. lemonade kid

    lemonade kid Forever Changing Thread Starter

    Location:
    MidCoast...Maine
    This is definitely a much more straightforward approach and as been suggested (@mameyama !)...quite beautiful. It has much more of the melancholy emotion of the lonely encounter proposed by the singer here... as intended for this live performance. The studio version is a bit colder in it's delivery, and seems more of a free form jazz vocal experiment -- as all side one was.

    Thanks for sharing...this live version would have fit well on Blue Afternoon.
     
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