Discussion in 'Visual Arts' started by Timeline Man, Aug 1, 2021.
I'm going to bust your balls, 'Sacred Scrolls' not Secret. A typo I understand. Respect, John...
These "Secret Scrolls" are an entirely made up piece of fan-fiction by Patrick Michael Tilton. There are no "Secret Scrolls" mentioned anywhere in the films- It's clearly audible in ESCAPE that Cornelius says the stuff was commemorated in "The Sacred Scrolls". Look at a script if you don't believe me.
And about the time clock thing-Simply a screw up on Paul Dehn's part. And anyway, the theory you present doesn't make sense, because in ESCAPE, when the apeonauts arrive, they are in TAYLOR'S SHIP, and now all of a sudden instead of saying 3978/3979, it all of a sudden jumped back twenty three years?
And as far as the span of time between the events of PLANET and BENEATH, it certainly isn't a year or so-Taylor and Nova couldn't survive in the desolate, barren Forbidden Zone for a year on the week's worth of food and water given to them at the end of PLANET. Okay, so BENEATH shows them by a water hole, they may have some access to murky water, but where's the food coming from? I would say at most the time between PLANET and BENEATH is a few weeks at most.
But do we *really* know that the original Aldo (as mentioned in Cornelius's history) is a Gorilla? I think most people think it because there's the Gorilla antagonist in BATTLE and they're basing it on his being a Gorilla, but if we use the 'Monkey Planet' book as the source material, a Chimp is the first one that talked.
And as far as the name itself, there's no reason why both Chimps and/or Gorillas couldn't use the name to name their offspring. I don't believe any name is Species specific.
No, we don't know. It was an (Humanoid) Ape, of course.
And yes, they just "recycled" the name. Battle Aldo just named himself as such AFTER the events of CONQUEST, when he learnt to talk.
There's no need to be "confrontational". At all. Relax and have fun.
As simple as that, the sequels have continuity problems/issues, but that's not a tragedy: I mean, it's not hard to fill the gaps by ourselves and "fix" them. It's proper and legit. So, if you don't consider the SEQUELS (2-5) as being a standalone alternate universe different from POTA 68's, but as part of the mainstream POTA universe following POTA 68, then you must fill the gaps by yourself.
Maybe it wasn't about having "SECRET" Scrolls, but rather as Zaius finally revealing the truth to Cornelius and showing him Sacred Scrolls never displayed/revealed in public for obvious reasons. Use your mind.
Either way, we must take Cornelius's historical account as true. Patrick M. Tilton had good theories about it, very plausible.
Dr. Milo recalibrated the TIME CLOCK, and used Brent's destroyed ship as reference. Or Milo just installed Brent's Time Clock into the control panel of the partially refurbished Taylor's ship. Either way, we must "canonically" assume that one of the two dates is wrong, not for "screenplay reasons" but for "in-universe aspects". Milo must have used Brent's ship as a source of spare parts.
Taylor and Nova can survive for months and even years in the Forbidden Zone, in the same way as the "devolved" brute men (Nova's tribe) managed to do for centuries out there. ESCAPE retconned that, because we must give Milo a consistent time to partially rebuild and reactivate Taylor's ship, as well as Cornelius working his way with Zaius and thus discovering the real "history" of the Planet of the Apes.
Ok, in that spirit, we're 5 pages in and no mention of the stage production that starred Troy McClure? What's up with that?
The first rule of the Ape Club: we don't talk about Troy McClure.
Your correct about all but it was done out of expediency not any other reason and I know you understand that.
Society was changing so fast in those days and filmmakers then as today never put future events further into the future, you know flying cars by 2000 etc.
Century City was chosen because it was perfectly modern, almost NY,NY looking and to us who lived on the east coast and elsewhere it was perfect. Add in the college at Irving some matte paintings and you got on the cheap a decent steel colorless city. Californians must of scoffed alittle. It was all because of the $$$ and Fox was in turmoil then though the films they turned out in that golden age were tremendous. Im preaching to the choir here.
J Lee Thompson wanted that simple Hollywood beginning of something very violent to start the film, the ape getting his head blown off in the pre title sequence to get the audience accustomed to all the exposition that followed after the credits, but we know how that went.
That scene was the very first thing filmed in the winter of 1972. As I posted previously remnants of it are scattered throughout the last half hour of the film.
It was eerily quite with wind blowing, (North America 1991), heels clicking, beautiful shots of future city then an ape panting, crying, racing over the bridge then a loud "No" and the crack of a rifle.
They used a springboard the flip the ape in the air then he landed in a Christ like position on the concrete ( the sacrifice to start it all) loaded of course with the prerequisite amount of blood- cue music theme.
The amount of professional stuntmen was staggering even Gene Labell , Joe Rogans buddy, played a gorilla in makeup. Some say he was the gorilla sweeping up all the time but only Gene knows.
Like I always say they were poor science fiction but great allegory and that was the intent. The scifi was only a means to tell a cool story.
I apologize for always going on about Conquest but I had family and friends that were involved in its production and its a wonderful theatrical memory from those 'far off days'. John M.
No one's being confrontational-If you took it that way, I apologize.
Regarding Taylor and Nova's ability to live in The Forbidden Zone, for months, even years-I find that a bit of a stretch.
You have to remember the brute humans in the first film were only seen near the very edge of The Forbidden Zone, near one of the green belts which bordered it-They (the brute) weren't deep within it (The Forbidden Zone), otherwise Taylor and his crew would have probably seen them a lot sooner.
Dr. Zaius even states that "Man is a nuisance: He eats up his food supply in the forest, then migrates to our green belts and ravages our crops". Makes it sound like the savages eat their food supply in the forest/"jungle" and when that's depleted, they move to the Ape's green belts as seen where the corn field was growing in the first film.
I pretty much understand your reasons, but if "Brute Men" survived until 3978/3979 AD, then we must assume that there are scare sources of food and water here and there in the Forbidden Zone, and Nova is trained enough to scout for them.
I must say that I love this thread. Thank you everyone for being here. Hopefully, you're also enjoing my POTA site and spreading the URL in the net.
You know, I love this series to the nth degree, and when it's summer I automatically think about the series. Must be the shoreline!
I realized to be a devoted fan in 2005. Great times!
You became a fan in 2005 or the creation of your site.
If its the former I feel real old.
Man what stories I can tell you about these films.
The 2nd time seeing Conquest in Manhattan my father dropped me at the New Embassy Theater and he went to see "Deep Throat" a few theaters down. He made sure the times of the screenings were the same or close and all was fine.
The photos and lobby cards and standee posters were loaded up in the display and a couple of the lobby cards were stolen since they were outside the display case.
I loved the photos so much that the next day my Pop called 20th Century Fox office in Manhattan and was transferred to publicity where a distant cousin Jerry Anderson heard how much I loved this film and within a week got over a dozen BxW publicity stills in a manilla envelope in the mail with a Conquest metered postage stamp. Still have it and its a great momento.
I have tons more stories from all the Apes films. Its flooding my brain right now. Post alittle later, John M.
Not to mention the mutants living underground. They had to eat too.
Great point. And they were living in the deep of the Forbidden Zone.
I was a big fan when I was a kid. In the Eighties.
I rediscovered the classic pentalogy after the Burton reimagining (2001) and became more focused as fan.
In the summer of 2005, I created the Yahoo Group: "Apecalypse Now".
Too bad Yahoo deleted all groups in 2020. Such a crime. Thank God, I created "Time Travelling on the Planet of the Apes" in September 2018 and moved my timelines on there. Right in time.
They can create the illusion of food.
More than adequate for Victor Bueno.
Going over older posts.
Paul Dehn had said on record in Cinemafantastique ? and other rags that the Apes series was and is designed as a loop an inescapable loop. What we see on the screen will never change and will be constantly repeatable. This quote was made while Conquest was still being filmed - so ???
-And he wrote Escape which really is throwing a wrench into the works so Cornelius and Zira coming to earth 1973 is part of ape history...- To Dehn maybe not some fans.
I'm of the opinion that there are 2 timelines-The original of which its events led up to PLANET & BENEATH...
ESCAPE is the start of the second, accelerated timeline-By accelerated, I mean things happen much quicker than they originally did (the plague, the apes' revolt and such)... My own theory is that while some things remained the same (apes taking over after having been enslaved), it doesn't mean everything will be *exactly* the same. I forget what it's called, but there's a theory out there that if someone went back in time and changed one little thing, it could effect the entire future. C,Z,&M arriving back in time may be such a circumstance: While their arrival brought forth a savior to free his people, what happens after that may all be changed. Z&C's arrival back in time may potentially make it so their future selves never exist, because their ancestors may have done something different in the new timeline that cancels out everything that originally happened.
Yes, I guess that it was the original intent, but he must have changed his mind before BATTLE. In BATTLE, there are constant references to "altering the past". The ending is also clear.
The theory is called "The Butterfly Effect".
Cornelius, Zira and CAESAR make Taylor and Brent's sacrifice meaningful and necessary.
Surely, the Planet of the Apes II in the "new" 3978 AD would be vastly different from the one of the first 2 movies, and Taylor and Brent will never meet Cornelius and Zira, or Zaius, or every other character from POTA 68.
There will be new Humanoid Apes born after generations and generations, as well as new men (goodbye, Nova).
In a subtle way, Cornelius and Zira sacrificed themselves to save Earth, Taylor and Brent.
Dehn changed his mind eventually with BATTLE because of the of the butcher job done on CONQUEST at release so he had to change his drafts of BATTLE to a peacefully non political unnecessary sequel.
Cornelius and Zira showing up hastened the Apes rise and Mans downfall. It would of happened eventually only a few hundred years later but without Cornelius and Zira giving birth to Caesar.
From what Dehn was insinuating imho was Man will blow himself up, Apes will take over, Taylor and crew went into space on a one way trip before all this turmoil, time warp, land back on earth and die on an active doomsday bomb.
My little problem is how can it start again without Cornelius and Zira going back in time. Well its doesn't have to 'start again' it just needs to have happened once.
ESCAPE, CONQUEST, and BATTLE do not need to happen as we know them. Thats the premise of the NEW APES films. It happens this way now.
Don't forget Taylor and crew went into outer space during RISE of the Planet of the Apes. So now there are two versions of how the Statue of liberty is blown in half. The original 5 film series and the new trilogy which is going to continue with Wes Ball-Disney-and the original RISE screenwriters. Heaven help us, but maybe not, it could be great but anything with Disney involved is problematic. We will see.....John M.
In the original timeline, Cornelius and Zira never arrived in 1973.
In 1983, the space plague occurred.
The Nuclear War was set to occur in 1993, no matter what (as established by POTA 1968: at the end of 20th century). Human kind destroyed itself.
Humanoid Apes took over Earth after 500 years, in the post-holocaust world.
Movie wise the original timeline of events are vaguely unknown. Its not until ESCAPE that we get 'a' timeline from Cornelius which contradicts the Pota68 timeline as per Sacred Scrolls (religion) or Zaius's truth telling and Cornelius's own discovery ( science).
Do we know when nuclear war really happened in the Planet and Beneath worlds, it could of been 2050 or 2100. I understand the Alpha/ Omega bomb is a "lovely souvenir from the 20th century" buts thats because thats the time of Taylor's blastoff.
It is ESCAPE that creates an origin story but thats convoluted as I said cause Cornelius had no idea his son Caesar would be the spark of it all. No mention in any histories from Pota68.
I go back and forth on this obviously and its reason why I don't like these fan fiction what ifs, it can drive you nuts since an answer can never be agreed upon by fans and many times the screenwriters themselves.
What is the truth? It seems their are two choices, Apes mutated after Man blew himself up and the other an Ape revolt instigated it all with a virus common to both - maybe. John M.
...And in ESCAPE, Milo is incorrect when he says (paraphrased) "And the Earth will be destroyed, just as we saw it"...
Because of the three ape-o-nauts going back in time, "the butterfly effect" is in play and things may not necessarily happen just the way they did in the original timeline, leading up to the end events of BENEATH. The Earth may never be destroyed as seen at the end of BENEATH, or if it does indeed get destroyed, it may be a whole other set of circumstances and it could be at an earlier, or later, date.
Separate names with a comma.