Time Travelling on the Planet of the Apes - my definitive timelines of the original POTA series

Discussion in 'Visual Arts' started by Timeline Man, Aug 1, 2021.

  1. Timeline Man

    Timeline Man Time Traveler from Naples Thread Starter

    Location:
    Naples
    No, speaking about the original timeline, the Nuclear War happened at the end of the 20th century - as established by Cornelius' research in POTA '68. Thus, even if you don't consider the Alpha/Omega Bomb as "canonical" within the background and the intentions conceived by the writers of POTA '68, the Nuclear War matches what we see in BATTLE.

    Caesar wasn't the "spark" of the Ape Revolution in the original timeline. The Ape Revolution occurred in a huge timespan of 300 years. 1993 + 500 = 2493. 1485 years before the arrival of Taylor.

    Apes never "mutated". You cannot make normal apes evolve into Humanoid Apes in few years, that would be IMPOSSIBLE even from a sci-fi standpoint. As simple as that, Humanoid Apes already existed in that universe, and they came from Africa and Asia. They were there from the start.

    I guess that, in the original timeline, they had been brought to America in the 1973-1993 timespan, not for slavery. Remember, in the original timeline, Cornelius, Zira and Milo never arrived.
     
  2. Timeline Man

    Timeline Man Time Traveler from Naples Thread Starter

    Location:
    Naples
    There are "normal" chimps in the circus, at the endof ESCAPE.

    Cornelius, Zira and Dr. Milo not only can talk, but they got an "humanoid" appearance: they are bigger, taller and can walk normally --- they look like bigfoots.
    In CONQUEST, you can see hundreds of "Humanoid Apes", and they are considered "normal apes" in that universe.

    As simple as that, no human is surprised by the appearance of the "Humanoid Apes" in either 1973 and 1991. They are considered as being "normal apes" in that universe. Anyway, ESCAPE features real chimps (not actors in make-up) at the very end, thus we can firmly say that: humanoid apes are a simian species "normally" existing in that universe along with what we consider "normal apes". That's it.
     
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  3. Jack Lord

    Jack Lord Forum Resident

    Location:
    Washington, DC
    You guys are driving me nuts. I am going to have to watch all 5 in a row.

    "The only good human is ... A Dead Human."
     
  4. Dillydipper

    Dillydipper Sultan Of Snark

    Location:
    Central PA
    I think the sequels cause fans to obsess about twisting them into making coherent sense, and hammering them into a "canon", which doesn't exist. There is a book by Pierre Boulle. There is a screenplay by Rod Serling, which didn't happen. There is a film with a "gotcha" ending. And this is all followed with product-after-product which can't possibly make any further impact on you, because you already got that from the twist at the end of the original film.

    And then, there is a legion of fans, who want to turn the essence of their experience they had seeing that ending, into a significant piece of "saga".

    Soylent Green got it right: once you get to the reveal...show's over. Maybe there's a Bond film playing at the cinema across town...
     
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  5. apesfan

    apesfan "Going Ape"

    I can't do this anymore:blah:;).
    I take the Apes films as is, most of the time.
    ESCAPE gives us the reason it all started. As Paul Dehn has said its a loop thats inevitable and continuous. Doctor Hasslein talking to the President about changing the future, Virgil in BATTLE saying the same thing- but changing the future seems impossible if it already happened. Caesars speech predicting it all without the tacked on speech. BATTLE 's ending with melancholy music with Caesars statue crying cause its all for naught- Man and Ape will always be divisive, the world will blow up and it happens again.
    I guess because I take preview CONQUEST as my Apes film and it was to be the last Apes film and that BATTLE's inclusion was handled poorly, bad health for Dehn, the Corringtons- less said about those hacks- its too much.

    It happens as it is even with release Conquest and Caesar's conciliatory speech and Breck living and not getting pounded into the pavement. That and the decision to make a Kids apes film, BATTLE, were done for reasons other than Dehns and J.Lees vision for a forced 5th film.
    CONQUEST was filmed and done but had to be emasculated (violence,tone, keep it under 90 minutes) and the reason $$$ for making BATTLE without much input from Dehn which even went to writers arbitration makes BATTLE sort of irrelevant to ME. Im in the minority because I unfortunately know too much of what happened ( Im so special ;)). The inclusion of the Bomb footage amongst other footage makes BATTLE more palatable.

    You can say their are two ways it can go but thats just a means to an end. The world will blow up and Cornelius and Zira and Milo will start and cause it all OR it all happens organically on its own over a few hundred years in the early 21st century.
    Bye. John M.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2021
  6. apesfan

    apesfan "Going Ape"

    Oh lord. The virus brought back from outer space around 1980's caused the next generation of Apes to get humanoid looking and smarter. No parallel universe's just fantasy writing and thats good for me. Or not? John M.

    P.S. I wonder if the title card "The End" at the end of CONQUEST exists. I add this because this was really to be the last Apes film. Thats all...
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2021
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  7. will_b_free

    will_b_free Forum Resident

    Location:
    Boulder, CO
    There’s a 1970s bus visible in the ruins of New York in Beneath. One could pretend that in some later decade, the transit authority introduced a retro-looking bus. But if not, then the war happened in the 1970s.

    [​IMG]
     
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  8. apesfan

    apesfan "Going Ape"

    More obvious for us New Yorkers are the street signs that were finally replaced in the late 1970's.
    This is something that cannot be avoided and when it does the results can sometimes be more cringe. The taped phones in the command center in Conquest. Its unavoidable unless your Kubrick. John M.
     
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  9. Grand_Ennui

    Grand_Ennui Forum Resident

    Location:
    WI
    Don't forget, the baby chimp they used to portray baby Milo/Caesar had a little prosthetic put on his muzzle to give him more of the appearance of Cornelius and Zira. He may not have been an actor, but that baby chimp *was* in make-up. :)
     
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  10. Grand_Ennui

    Grand_Ennui Forum Resident

    Location:
    WI

    I agree, there is no 'parallel universe', the APES universe is supposed to take place in "our" universe, not an alternate/parallel universe.

    That whole parallel universe thing is just fan-fiction gone off the deep end.
     
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  11. apesfan

    apesfan "Going Ape"

    Lets all be honest, they are "humanoid Apes" because filmmaking tech is not what it is now. If the technology existed the 68-73 series would have Apes like the "Rise" series. To me it was a much more "cool" look and dress of the Pota68 films. It was totally acceptable because the films events take place on another planet, or as we find out, our own future -which is genius- and creates an ending visual that almost 55 years later is still on anybody's top 5 list of movie twists.
    Those of us that lived through the first non- roadshow exhibitions of February 1968 witnessed the talk and discussion in every delicatessen within a hundred miles of the Capitol theater NY,NY.
    I'm ashamed to say I fell asleep and it was the applause that snapped me to attention. Forgive me I was 8 years old and my Mother and her girlfriends cigarette smoke and the Wetsons hamburgers I ate pre film put me in a kid coma.
    We didn't need explanations for every little thing and we weren't as "sophisticated" as todays nutjob fanatics that make films into religion . Wait - am I doing this also?!
    Everybody today loves "2001 a space odysee" but during my early years it was panned by almost everyone but stoners and nerds. I was wrong ofcourse as history shows, but it was a yawnfest for the unitiated. It took me many years to love "2001", now I do, but I cannot get anybody in my family to watch the great new 4k with me even if my life depended on it.
    After Pota68 finished its run at the Capitol theater "2001" was next shown and was the last film shown their and the Capitol was closed down forever.
    The reason for this diatribe is that " 2001" is a technical marvel and to me is much less entertaining than the less technically sophisticated Apes films. Those films, along with audio/ Beatles, my college major and minor courses were enshrined in my future education. Little good it all did outside of a hobby.
    As usual I pontificate to an obscene degree. Thanks for tolerating me, John M.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2021
  12. Grand_Ennui

    Grand_Ennui Forum Resident

    Location:
    WI

    I agree with you that had the technology been available in 1967 when PLANET was filming, things probably would have looked a lot different than what we ended up with, although I do recall that John Chambers said he could have created the make-up to look more like an actual ape, but that he didn't because he "didn't want audiences to be grossed out for two hours" or something like that. He could have made them look more like real apes, but didn't.

    As for having explanations of everything, while I like kicking ideas around and all, it still all boils down to one fan's ideas which may or may not jibe with another. A lot of the things that I find being "unflubbed" as it were are really just a bunch of things that happened because of A) budgetary restraints B) production/continuity errors and/or C) making the stories up as they went along, or a combination of the three.

    People tend to forget that when PLANET was made, it was made as a stand-alone film-They had no plans for a sequel or sequels until the cash came rolling in... I recall on the old Yahoo! boards, there was one guy who thought that the thunder/lightning and the rolling boulder in The Forbidden Zone was actually the work of the mutants-Can't be though, because when PLANET was made, there were no mutants. In short, he acted like those things were placed in PLANET as a way to set up the mutants and their illusions in BENEATH, the way a series of films nowadays may drop little things in that set up events of a later film, but they didn't do it that way back then with PLANET, because, again, it was made as stand-alone movie.

    You know, I've never watched '2001-A Space Odyssey': I bought a copy of it used on DVD at a thrift store a few months back, but I've yet to watch it. I will say I have heard thru the years though that it can be a slow film if you're really not into it.

    As far as modern films becoming a 'religion'- I find STAR WARS to be the worst offenders of that. I own the original three SW films on DVD and that's all I need, and even with those, the only one I find that bears repeat viewing is the original one. EMPIRE is good enough though, and JEDI has its moments, but even when I was a kid and into the SW films, APES were always my favorites, and I *never* got into all the prequels and sequels and expanded universe SW stuff-I zero interest in any of that, and no interest in the whole Superhero film stuff either.
     
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  13. apesfan

    apesfan "Going Ape"


    I remember that Thunder and Lightning Beneath connection. Its obviously retcon theories that fans like to do. And when they don't know the real history of a particular film series it can be embarrassing.
    When showing the Apes films to my children in the 1990's I actually postulated that theory myself before knowing anybody else was posting such idiocy. I did it to make the films more palatable to my very young children and it gave the films a more cohesive narrative and young kids like that- wow! John M.
     
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  14. Timeline Man

    Timeline Man Time Traveler from Naples Thread Starter

    Location:
    Naples
    Well, we know for sure that it's a parallel universe because we never experienced a Nuclear War in 1993 or so, and there are no Gestalt Mind mutants around either! LMAO. So yes, all sci-fi movies are "parallel universes", technically speaking.

    Relax, guys, there's no need to be confrontational. I "sense" that you're taking this on a visceral level, and it's so disappointing.

    The Humanoid Apes look humanoid, make-up or not. It's not fan fiction to deduce concepts from WHAT YOU SEE ON-SCREEN. It's called... guess what... DEDUCTION. It's part of the fun inherent to movies.

    And I prefer the fantastic and wonderful POTA make-up over "CGI apes". Sorry.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2021
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  15. Timeline Man

    Timeline Man Time Traveler from Naples Thread Starter

    Location:
    Naples
    I just wrote a great timeline and gave some meaningful explanations. No fancy religion. You're overreacting, and that's deeply disappointing. Nobody is bursting your bubble, man. You can live in your world, and nobody will touch/ruin it. Think what you want about the POTA movies, it's your "mind".
    Just respect my argumentations, without calling me "fanatic". LOL.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2021
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  16. Timeline Man

    Timeline Man Time Traveler from Naples Thread Starter

    Location:
    Naples
    LOL there cannot be a "next generation of Apes" in only 8 years. This is lame, sorry.

    When people watch Cornelius and Zira, they perceive them as "normal apes", despite they can wear clothes and walk upright. They are just wonders because they speak!
     
  17. Timeline Man

    Timeline Man Time Traveler from Naples Thread Starter

    Location:
    Naples
    This is a frightening post. No, we're just having fun by discussing the movies we love. Also, I created a cool and detailed timeline. You're free to read it or not.
     
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  18. apesfan

    apesfan "Going Ape"

    Oy vey... Look at Rise Apes, the virus affected the apes already here.
    These (Pota68-73) are humans in makeup practical effects. Its not a story point or something to be reasoned its just the nature of the limits of medium budget filmmaking.
    Generations in most other animals are much different than us humans but Im not using the term 'Generation' as anything other than to convey new characters.
    Like I write till I puke its not meant to be hardcore science fiction, so you cannot explain or make excuses for every event on screen. Its Jules Verne not Arthur C. Clark.
    Pota film series are my favorite fantasy films because of the ideas/writing , music and cinematography, but it pales in technical knowhow compared to lets say "2001" which is a B. S. film in itself because that film is also style over substance imho.

    All I'm trying to say is its limits in filmmaking not that humans take the evolved look of apes in ESACAPE, CONQUEST and BATTLE as OK in this universe.
    SUSPENSION OF DISBELIEF. As someone who wrote student film scripts in college for four years, and did very well , not everything has to be explained. "2001" is considered a monumental classic and to me it really is an expensive student film- and I respect it- don't explain a F$$$##g thing is how Kubrick chose to go requiring his audience to use their intellect.

    I've seen all the Apes films at the time's of release and moviegoers never said or displayed or wanted exposition to reason why the POTA APES look like they do. Those times were simpler but not for simpler minds. John M.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2021
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  19. apesfan

    apesfan "Going Ape"

    Im not overreacting:realmad:...I'm explaining myself. You like to explain everything about Apes and I'm giving my explanations for my opinions and thats all they are opinions, backed by the filmmakers;).
    Im the last to overreach. I'm just writing why whats on the screen doesn't need a reason, an exposition rant, or fit in some neat linear time scale. These are great films for their time especially for fantasy/scifi/adventure/allegory and are a representation of the politics of that time.
    Also the fanatic/ nutjob remark was clearly about todays moviegoers, read it again. John.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2021
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  20. Grand_Ennui

    Grand_Ennui Forum Resident

    Location:
    WI
    I usually don't say this, but this post requires an "Amen Brother!" :righton:


    Same response as to the previous post. :righton:
     
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  21. Dillydipper

    Dillydipper Sultan Of Snark

    Location:
    Central PA
    You are too easily frightened by an alternative opinion. I watched the movie. I read the book. I had as much fun as you did. Then I went home, without the need for a cool and detailed timeline about stories that were just sequels-for-money, with no connection to what Boulle wrote.
     
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  22. Grand_Ennui

    Grand_Ennui Forum Resident

    Location:
    WI

    Yes, but at the time PLANET was made (1967), 1993 was 26 years away, so they had no idea if a nuclear war would happen in that time-span or not.

    They were playing around with a future that hadn't happened yet, not looking back 28 years and saying "The war didn't happen in 1993, so we're going to create a parallel universe to set our film in"...
     
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  23. Grand_Ennui

    Grand_Ennui Forum Resident

    Location:
    WI

    That is true, the sequels really have nothing to do with Boulle's original novel, although a few of the "ideas" in the book were there, though very vaguely...

    BENEATH set in a world dominated by apes, okay, I'll say there's some connection there. I own a copy of Boulle's book that staes the book inspired the films PLANET *and* BENEATH, so I'll play along with that.

    ESCAPE, if you want to stretch credibility, you could say it's got Boulle's idea of an 'alien' becoming a celebrity of sorts in a new world, but ultimately being seen as a threat to the dominant species. (Ulysse Mérou in the original book, and of course Zira and Cornelius in ESCAPE).

    The idea of apes taking over centuries before is touched upon in Boulle's book, though it's quite different when that idea was adapted to Cornelius' history telling in ESCAPE and the film of CONQUEST.

    BATTLE-There's really no connection to be made. I can't even say there's a connection of it being an ape ruled world, because apes are not truly top-dog in BATTLE.


    *** PS- Regarding the whole 'celebrity alien' thing used in the original book and in ESCAPE, while it's in both, I think it's more of a coincidence than something Dehn thought out. I'm not even sure if Dehn ever even read Boulle's book.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2021
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  24. Timeline Man

    Timeline Man Time Traveler from Naples Thread Starter

    Location:
    Naples
    Yes, both the interpretations are true.
    Forget the Nuclear War... the sequels established that the Humanoid Apes are part of this universe. The POTA universe, which is different from "ours" (the viewers). Don't forget that Taylor's space agency is called ANSA, and Taylor comes from 1971 (only 3 years after the actual release date of POTA '68).
    According to BATTLE, Mandemus was very old, and he was born before Caesar (1973).
    CONQUEST showed us that Humanoid Apes come from Africa and Asia. That's 100% canon.
     
  25. Timeline Man

    Timeline Man Time Traveler from Naples Thread Starter

    Location:
    Naples
    LMAO fine for you! I'm a POTA fan and I love all 5 movies. So I just created a website to "expose" my detailed timelines. Tons of fans loved my work, and it was issued on a POTA fanzine many years ago.
    You don't have that "need"? Okay for you, it's a democracy. I compiled those detailed timelines - the very first work to carefully "flesh out" the Alterable Timeline Theory - and countless POTA fans loved it.
    Life is great. Enjoy it, buddy.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2021
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