Time Travelling on the Planet of the Apes - my definitive timelines of the original POTA series

Discussion in 'Visual Arts' started by Timeline Man, Aug 1, 2021.

  1. apesfan

    apesfan "Going Ape"

    CONQUEST is canon, but the real cut (app. 92 minutes) shown to Phoenix Arizona audiences for a weekend a month before the heavy handed fractured nerves at Fox destroyed it, is my Canon.
    BATTLE is ok and the extended cut is canon for me and a better film for it.
     
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  2. Timeline Man

    Timeline Man Time Traveler from Naples Thread Starter

    Location:
    Naples
    Fully agreed!
     
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  3. Grand_Ennui

    Grand_Ennui Forum Resident

    Location:
    WI
    I don't know why the alternate cut of CONQUEST couldn't be canon: There's more bloodshed obviously, and it's good to see Governor Breck get his comeuppance, and there's no B.S. tacked on ending, with Caesar suddenly having a change of heart after giving a fiery speech telling humanity that they're screwed.

    That said, none of the changes in the alternate cut of CONQUEST really change anything that happens in BATTLE, and the alternate cut is my preferred version. Canon, maybe not, but I like it better.

    Gotta go along with @apesfan and @Timeline Man that the extended cut of BATTLE is canon to me for sure.
     
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  4. apesfan

    apesfan "Going Ape"

    To me the original violent cut of CONQUEST makes almost more sense with BATTLE following.
    After the canon happy ending of CONQUEST was shown and made good $$$, another sequel was required. It was to have Breck as the antagonist not Kolp. So Breck living in the Canon CONQUEST makes sense for the original drafts of BATTLE. Don Murray did not want to reprise his role giving how shoddy CONQUEST was edited so Kolp (Severn Darden) became the antagonist.

    So to me the original Violent cut of CONQUEST with Breck getting pounded into the pavement leading to BATTLE'S governor Kolp makes sense. Kolp saying the bomb killed Breck, weather true or not, to give the former governor a little dignity by not revealing a bunch of gorillas decimated him, is just an educated guess in any case.
    Originally Breck was to be tied up behind Caesar on the steps of the governor' s building during the final speech and ripped apart. I wonder how that might of looked? Anyway its fascinating...John M.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2021
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  5. apesfan

    apesfan "Going Ape"

    Sorry for going over old and litigated posts.
    He HAD to change his mind with going forward because of the butchered CONQUEST. When he finally found out how the films narrative was pacified, during the drafting of BATTLE, he had to change everything and got sick physical and could not fully continue.
    The Boringtons(Corringtons) were brought in and BATTLE suffered.
    Sorry for going on, John M.
     
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  6. Timeline Man

    Timeline Man Time Traveler from Naples Thread Starter

    Location:
    Naples
    Yes, but fortunately there's a large "in-universe" timespan between CONQUEST (1991/1992) and BATTLE. Within that timespan, everything may have happened. Maybe Kolp was lying about the bomb...
     
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  7. Timeline Man

    Timeline Man Time Traveler from Naples Thread Starter

    Location:
    Naples
    Are you sure that Dehn wasn't the one to conceive the "altering the past" sections of BATTLE? Maybe we'll never know...
     
  8. apesfan

    apesfan "Going Ape"

    :agree::agree:
    Just play Caesar's speech at the end of CONQUEST which Ends with "And that day is upon you now!!"
    Sure altering the past was incorporated into BATTLE with Virgil contemplating the theory a few time's . Its a co-opted supposition from Dr. Otto Haslein in ESCAPE which Dehn wrote that the Corringtons used after viewing all previous Apes films when called in to change the narrative and continue the screenplay while Dehn was convalescening. Thats the story and I'm sticking to it.:wave:
     
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  9. apesfan

    apesfan "Going Ape"

    Should of showed the next paragraph of my post, explains Kolp and Breck better.
     
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  10. apesfan

    apesfan "Going Ape"

    It was a great movie moment when the regular version of CONQUEST ended in the Babylon and Brentwood theaters NY with nearly filled to capacity showings for a while.
    When Roddy McDowall says " The Birth of the Planet of the Apes " then Jerry Goldsmiths scarecrow revelatory music cue was blasted, the screaming and yelling from mostly under 16 year olds caused me to laugh with joy. That jolt of participants even my own WWII father loved that line and became an Apes fan.
    The music appropriations from Goldsmith is another interesting story, John M.
     
  11. Grand_Ennui

    Grand_Ennui Forum Resident

    Location:
    WI

    Goldsmith's music really worked well in that instance in CONQUEST.

    While I don't flatly hate the line, I do think that the "Tonight we have seen the birth of the Planet of the Apes" line is a bit corny.
     
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  12. apesfan

    apesfan "Going Ape"

    I guess thats why my Dads generation loved it, a very old Hollywood ending.
     
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  13. Grand_Ennui

    Grand_Ennui Forum Resident

    Location:
    WI
    @apesfan,

    Since you were on the old Yahoo! pota group, maybe you remember this debate: James the moderator on there said that the reason the bomb/mutant subplot stuff in BATTLE was excised from the theatrical cut of the film was to make the film shorter so the theaters were able to squeeze in another showing each day.

    I always thought he was blowing smoke on that one... Did any of your old insider/contacts ever mention anything like that to you?
     
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  14. apesfan

    apesfan "Going Ape"

    Many smaller scenes were also excised like Aldo on the school bus, Abe getting reprimanded about saying 'No' and the opening theme which throughout the decades has about 5 different versions with music getting chopped up.
    Arthur Jacobs after CONQUEST went into a kid friendly phase and the dark 'Doomsday Bomb' subplot was cut. That subplot and all the Mendez/Alma give and take are some of the best scenes in this film.

    James is right that getting it under 90 minutes was a concern so they killed 2 birds with 1 stone and in the process killed this film. One of the few times our opinions didn't clash.

    They all felt though to add an exposition blast with footage from ESCAPE and CONQUEST under the John Huston school narration which added about 3 minutes.
    I think everyone involved was drinking to much especially J.Lee Thompson. He had a reason imho, his vision of CONQUEST was destroyed, BATTLE ' must' be a family film, and he felt imo betrayed cause he was there at the beginning in 1964 to make Planet of the Apes and got sidelined and handcuffed when he got his chance. John M.
     
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  15. Timeline Man

    Timeline Man Time Traveler from Naples Thread Starter

    Location:
    Naples
    Despite all the pre-production, production and post-production issues, Thompson managed to do a great work with both the movies. I love them.
     
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  16. apesfan

    apesfan "Going Ape"

    After the "Go Ape" festivals of 1974 and the multi film combos of 1973 , the Apes films made about $125 million bucks, about $800 million today. Almost a billion dollars!!
    Oh we cant go over a million and a half for the last three sequels, what BS. Fox was in turmoil but the present management at that time were clueless even though they are decent executives (accountants).

    Props to Roddy for "aquiring" the uncut CONQUEST during a clandestine operation. The FBI eventually got him. He came out of it OK but he lost many 35mm prints that he collected.
    Very Foward thinking but the law won. He knew original CONQUEST was special....

    Also in early 1971 Planet and Beneath were double billed officially with posters and all and that made about 18 million domestically.
    Oh no we can't give you a bigger budgets for the next 3 sequels- what horse S$$kt....

    Around this time I made up my mind to go into majoring in Cinematography and Audio in 11-12 th grade and into college , and through that education and my Uncle John and Jerry Anderson , discovered so much about Apes and other films. John M.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2021
  17. Grand_Ennui

    Grand_Ennui Forum Resident

    Location:
    WI

    Totally agree with you about the lowered budgets for the last three films: I know I've mentioned that J. Lee Thompson said it was a shame they didn't try to go bigger and better with each film, but if that wasn't possible with the budget(s), then FOX should have at least kept the budget(s) at a decent level to try to maintain the quality set forth in PLANET. Okay, maybe they couldn't keep PLANET's quality, but they could have kept things at a consistent level of quality, rather than diminishing them. With everything cut budgetary-wise, it's a miracle that J. Lee was able to make such a decent looking film with CONQUEST.
     
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  18. apesfan

    apesfan "Going Ape"

    CONQUEST did indeed have a more expensive look. Bruce Surtees who was Clint Eastwoods cinematographer, J.Lee, Paul Dehn, Frank Capra jr., Roddy McDowall and even APJAC were all in to make an explicitly political statement. Even the matte paintings added to Irvine College Ape training scene were done well.
    Theirs even a scene filmed with a chimp climbing the building while the apes are moping and wiping with a guard climbing after him and of course gets shot down.
    Tom Scott made a great score which was severely edited down to give the film a more documentary feel. His progressive sound effect music for the riot was recommended by Toms friend the great Lalo Schifrin because Scott wasn't given any time to finish but was retained for the uncut riot.
    I will admit that after the cuts came, the audio/ music editors did a very musical job, for making a new riot score from the theme music, execution scene and previous first riot scene.

    I have much in the way of photos, contact sheets backing up many of the scene cuts from the Preview showing. Shame on them.
    Man, I never stop- sorry, John M.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2021
  19. Grand_Ennui

    Grand_Ennui Forum Resident

    Location:
    WI
    Back to this question again: Are you saying you agreed with James that he was right that BATTLE was edited down some so they could squeeze in another daily showing of BATTLE at the theaters during its original run?

    Or are you saying that while you and he agreed that the film was cut down, you're saying the stuff was edited out to make the film more 'kid friendly'?
     
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  20. apesfan

    apesfan "Going Ape"

    Very tricky - curious curious:whistle::shrug:
    Scenes were edited for content First. Then lets keep it under 90 minutes. Like I wrote they cut so much that the prologue with the Lawgiver was embellished with scenes from the previous Apes films to add some minutes and it kept it kid friendly.
    I guess Aldo throwing a grenade into a tent to kill one mutant was to much. Aldo originally said "Lets go back to Gorilla city" but was either reshot or dubbed, not sure but was cut from the theatrical release.
    The preview is the theatrical cut, they learned from CONQUEST not to be to much on the nose or simply political. Imagine today in a film thats for younger viewers saying about a black man and I quote "whats the matter - he loves apes or something" , "don't it figure" Ah a controversial line for sure about white policemen which I was one for a short time -Federally. Great stuff!
    The extended version adds most cut scenes back especially the Mendez origins and his philosophy and that makes BATTLE a decent film.
    It might be a chicken or the egg mystery. Imho cuts were made for content, then they saw to much was cut, so the prologue was amended but keep it at 90 minutes. So James is right but not necessarily for time only. I don't recall 90 minute mandates that much then. If a finished film is great it was left alone. CONQUEST and BATTLE were problematic to Fox for different reasons. Oy vey! John M.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2021
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  21. Grand_Ennui

    Grand_Ennui Forum Resident

    Location:
    WI
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  22. Timeline Man

    Timeline Man Time Traveler from Naples Thread Starter

    Location:
    Naples
    Geez, I don't remember. Flashbacks? What scenes?
     
  23. apesfan

    apesfan "Going Ape"

    Are you serious?
    The Lawgiver classroom speech was augmented with scenes(visuals) from ESCAPE and CONQUEST. They were added to the Lawgivers talk after editing the crap out of BATTLE and had to pad the beginning to give it a proper length but keep it at anout 90 minutes.
    The music was repurposed from Rosenmans other cues to smooth over that classroom scene like icing on a cake.

    There's an easy way to know what scenes were futzed with in todays world.
    CDs of many films since the late 1990's come so complete with all music cues. The Pota films are no exception especially the most recent Box set from LaLa Records- fantastic. There are no music cues for that BATTLE beginning, no cue for the 2nd half of the CONQUEST riot, the Bomb ending of BENEATH etc.
    Also the isolated musictracks on CONQUEST are on the unrated version NOT the Canon version cause the unrated blu -ray from 2008 is closest to the real , preview approved, Fox/ filmakers version of CONQUEST. Then they caved to uptight parents and changes commenced. BATTLE was futzed with before preview, if there was a proper preview, before release, the producers acquiesced to what they perceived could be another tug of war.

    Ofcourse after the scores were made music editors are obliged to use and abuse and not use music the Director doesn't want or doesn't work to him. The history of Apes, musically, is something that I rigorously investigated being a musician, lover of music theory, and learning in higher education how its all done.

    Like many musicians I have decent musical ear and visually can make educated guesses of how these scenes were constructed and deconstructed. Even as a 12 year old certain things didn't sit right. Then later on I was vindicated with many persons who were much more knowledgeable and in the know lamenting the haste and waste applied to our beloved films.

    This happens to all movies but it was insidiously reckless as it pertains to Apes.
    But in reality this argument I make means nothing and is Only of importance to us Pota nuts. :thumbsup::agree:,
    Man, sorry for these long posts..John M.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2021
  24. apesfan

    apesfan "Going Ape"

    I'm sorry really for going on. CONQUEST 's ending in either version has the tacked on Jerry Goldsmith cue from Pota68. Jerry was invited by all involved to see CONQUEST. When his music came up he either confronted FOX or went straight to the Musicians Union and since winning always got a few bucks from screenings or videos.
    The way his music was used on the canon version was very good. The way its on the Unrated version is curious:
    At preview the Apes pound Breck, screaming from all involved, then the screen goes Black with a "The End" title card. This is not on the unrated version because the riot was branched from the Japanese released version which had more of the Goldsmith cue and no ending title card.
    If I have the time and will I might look into this more.
    By the way Tom Scott was rightfully pissed at how his music was marginalized and not given proper time to write a score more complete especially the riot music.

    PS: thats LaLa Land records. From a post back. I have absolutely no affiliation with them just love there work on film soundtracks.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2021
  25. Grand_Ennui

    Grand_Ennui Forum Resident

    Location:
    WI

    Even though he would have been paid for his score when he wrote it for PLANET, I can see why he wanted to be paid for use of that bit used in CONQUEST.
     
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