Timewatching: The Divine Comedy Album-by-album thread

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by LivingForever, Nov 5, 2020.

  1. ericthegardener

    ericthegardener Forum Resident

    Location:
    Dallas, TX
    I wondered the same thing and figured it might be Joby's working arrangement, but not the final. Like "Hey Neil! Here's where I am at, let me know what you think before I go any further down this path."
     
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  2. A Tea-Loving Dave

    A Tea-Loving Dave Forum Resident

    Location:
    Northumberland, UK
    Not really much that I can say which has not already been said at great length by others in this thread - I love the combination of melodramatic and epic orchestration and fantastic vocals (has Neil's voice ever sounded quite this good up to this point?) counterpointing the banal and somewhat seedy narrative of the lyrics, and although it is definitely one of the more oversaturated tracks in the DC back catalogue, this doesn't bother me in the same way that tracks such as "National Express" do. It helps that I often tend to deliberately skip it when listening to Absent Friends, or when I have my Divine Comedy collection on shuffle, unless I particularly *want* to listen to it at that moment; that way I keep it as "fresh" as possible and can fully enjoy those occasions when I go to a concert and it is inevitably played.... for as good as it is on the record, it is even better live.

    5/5

    See, for me that is most certainly a feature rather than a bug, for precisely the reason mentioned in your second sentence :p

    Reading this line of your excellent (even if I disagree) essay arguing against the track, I just *had* to stop and laugh for a moment; myself and my other half Helen have very similar music tastes to one another, but one of the key differences is that I *love* Pink Floyd whilst she varies between indifference and dislike depending on the track in question..... and this particular sentence written by yourself sounds very much akin to things she has said on many (many, many, many :p ) occasions about "Comfortably Numb" and "Echoes"!

    Yep, that's basically a more succinct version of what I wanted to say above!

    This is precisely the way I always used to interpret the line in question, until I was exposed to enough live versions to catch on that he wasn't just inserting a random song title into the line and that it was actually intended that way :p
     
  3. LivingForever

    LivingForever Forum Arachibutyrophobic Thread Starter

    Good call - certainly amongst Divine Comedy fans that’s a very popular song.

    I’d agree though that this and “Lady of a Certain Age” are the last two to be so publicly and critically acclaimed. I guess this is due to them having been released on major label albums and getting a wider audience.

    (Although I’d argue that since then “Norman and Norma” has actually managed to reach the wider public conscience but I don’t know how acclaimed it is!)
     
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  4. LivingForever

    LivingForever Forum Arachibutyrophobic Thread Starter

    I’ve reread all the comments before yours because I wanted to try to understand your point - but I don’t see anyone anywhere complaining about the lyrics of this song (except @The Turning Year who thought they were banal/boring and didn’t care about the characters...)
     
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  5. The Turning Year

    The Turning Year Lowering average scores since 2021

    Location:
    London, UK
    I do love that he says 'settee'! :love:
    Before this, I had honestly never heard anyone say 'settee' except my parents. I eventually gave in to calling it a sofa as 'settee' was getting me funny looks...!

    :laugh: Haha! This is something my husband says a lot, which he got from his dad, so I guess its filtered through to me...! I don't always mind music 'not going anywhere'; for example I really like the hypnotic outro to Eric the Gardener (and have a soft spot for Mike Oldfield :D).
     
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  6. LivingForever

    LivingForever Forum Arachibutyrophobic Thread Starter

    This is how I always interpreted the song, too. That they were about to consumate their night together (or maybe they only were in his mind, have we considered that?) but then he fell asleep, leaving her to wander off and get talking to the Mutual Friend instead.

    I've never heard it as the girl sleeping with him and then going off and sleeping with the friend as well.
     
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  7. LivingForever

    LivingForever Forum Arachibutyrophobic Thread Starter

    Anyway, a bumper day of discussion and scores (especially considering we didn't get started until late!) means that "Our Mutual Friend" scored 94.55 points from 21 votes, for a preliminary total of:

    4.50

    Straight into the top 10 with a bullet!
     
  8. LivingForever

    LivingForever Forum Arachibutyrophobic Thread Starter

    Today’s song is:

    The Happy Goth

    Neil has plenty to say about this one! From his 2020 sleevenotes:

    In The Happy Goth we return to the joys of parenthood. Except parenting teenagers rather than babes-in-arms. It was a day off in Buffalo NY. Days off on tour can be a mixed blessing. You'd like to just get on with it, but you'd quickly run out of steam if you didn't have them. I was feeling good about myself because I'd gone to the Albright-Knox gallery and hadn't just mooned around my hotel room all day. Anyway, there I was, mooning around my hotel room when I saw a Gothically attired young lady in the street below. She looked happy. I enjoyed the juxtaposition. I imagined a conversation between her and her anxious parents. But this was a conversation they couldn't possibly have. Even more important that I write a song about it then.

    And from some 2004 interviews:

    Another stand-out track is ‘The Happy Goth’, which turns out to be an affectionate tribute to the new Mrs Hannon.

    “Órla was a massive Cure fan when she was a teenager,” he reveals. “Even on holidays she’d lock herself in her room listening to Robert Smith, and her dad was really worried about her. But secretly she was quite enjoying herself, and that’s what the songs’s about. What parents think is deep depression is actually just kids trying to find their own identity through books or music. It’s actually quite a healthy thing to do. I used to shut myself away in the attic and not be seen for weeks – never did me any harm.” (Ri-Ra, March 2004)


    Was ‘Happy Goth’ based on someone you know?
    I don’t know quite where I got the title from, maybe I saw a goth smiling, I don’t know (laughs). But it seemed like a paradox, really. I developed it into a dialogue between the parent and the teenager. It doesn’t desperately need to be a goth. That is just the sort of jokey surface… it’s more about teenagers locking themselves away, and parents getting worried. It’s a self-help song for parents. You know, they just need to chill out a bit. It’s important, really. It’s a voyage of self-discovery and it’s actually very satisfying – that dwelling on miserableness (laughs).
    Right. I guess we all went through that (laughs). And we all come through okay.
    All the sensible people did. Yeah, it’s not even a question of it being a phase, it’s just something you’ve got to do. (Sentimentalist, Aug 2004)


    Here’s the song:

     
  9. LivingForever

    LivingForever Forum Arachibutyrophobic Thread Starter

    And here’s a solo acoustic version from the BBC Radio 2 Jonathan Ross show in 2002, where Neil explains that he’s playing it a step down because he has a terrible hangover (wait, that doesn’t sound like the Neil I know! :D)

     
  10. LivingForever

    LivingForever Forum Arachibutyrophobic Thread Starter

    And then an early band arrangement from October 2002, where Rob gets his congas out again! (Did they make it to the album this time? I think they may have...)

     
    Last edited: May 12, 2021
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  11. James Cunningham

    James Cunningham Forum Resident

    Location:
    Edinburgh, UK
    The Happy Goth

    Another miss for me today. The highlight of the song is the lower woodwind groove (Bari Sax/Bassoon?).
    The sentiment of the song is fine, but it all comes across as twee Neil by numbers.

    More positive scores in the days to come thankfully.
    2..5/5
     
  12. BryanS

    BryanS Forum Resident

    The Happy Goth

    Another nailed down classic for me. I wonder which came first the 'Joe-le-Taxi Sax' in Happy Goth or the 'Joe-le-Taxi' cover version? Surely they are linked.
    I always see this song as a kind of sequel to 'My Imaginary Friend' - like the kid has grown up a bit and going through adolescence. I love everything about it. I seem to remember Neil doing a lovely version of this on RTE at the time but I don't see it on YouTube. Maybe I have it somewhere.

    Anyway - The Happy Goth another 5/5 from me.
     
  13. LivingForever

    LivingForever Forum Arachibutyrophobic Thread Starter

    That would be great if you did! Let me know if you need any help getting it online :)
     
  14. a paul

    a paul Forum Resident

    Location:
    London
    Tune in next month for @Zardok saying that everyone wants to cancel A Lady Of A Certain Age because she has a holiday home!
     
  15. The Booklover

    The Booklover Forum Resident

    Location:
    Germany
    Our Mutual Friend

    I enjoyed reading all the praise for it, but I'm glad that there were a few among you who weren't as enthusiastic including @The Turning Year's negative assessment. Personally, I do like it, but I feel it's certainly one of the most overrated TDC songs in the canon. And yes, the same goes for "A Lady Of A Certain Age" and (to a lesser extent) "To The Rescue".

    On the surface, it feels like much ado about nothing. It's not the end of a long relationship. But as others have suggested, if the main protagonist really invested so much into this potential relationship for being starved of affection for so long, all the fuss is understandable from his point of view even though it stems from just one encouter.

    Yes, in contrast to the two other songs I mentioned above, there's not even a chorus (not that that's bad in itself). Also, I agree that the epic outro leaves me a bit cold and is much too long.

    I'm also glad a specific song didn't make the final cut for this very reason. The new line resonates much more with me. Also, that song wouldn't fit the perceived blossoming of a new love but rather foreshadow the depressing aftermath.

    4
     
  16. Vagabone

    Vagabone Forum Resident

    Location:
    UK
    The Happy Goth

    I've been on the fence about this song in the past- I know some people really despise it, and while I wouldn't let that influence me with a song I really love, if I have less strong feelings about it I can let others' negativity influence me (there's another example of this on the next album). I suppose people think it a bit toe-curling Neil appointing himself as a family counsellor. Also concern over teenage children might strike some as being prematurely middle-aged and thus the antithesis of rock 'n' roll. But Neil was never rock 'n' roll, and by Jonathan Richman rules the true punk spirit is to write about whatever the hell you want to without caring what anyone else thinks.

    Anyway, setting aside such outside influence, and attempting objectivity.... I have to say I like the music very much and find the lyric quite funny. ("Snows of Hoth" - an inspired rhyme). And by the way, I too was a teenage Cure fan.

    4/5
     
  17. The Turning Year

    The Turning Year Lowering average scores since 2021

    Location:
    London, UK
    The Happy Goth
    Having not heard this in absolutely years I enjoyed it more than I thought I was going to, but I'm with @James Cunningham again today on this one.
    I also find it twee, although it has some lovely moments in it, primarily that woodwind bass line (good spot with Joe-le-Taxi, @BryanS !) and the airy flute noodling at the end.
    Its definitely something only Neil could have written, and including a Star Wars reference can only be a good thing! :D
    I like the sentiment, and the interview in which he says it applies to reclusive teenagers in general reflects how I saw it when I first heard it (when I was only a few years away from that awkward phase of life myself... :))
    2.8/5.0
     
  18. The Turning Year

    The Turning Year Lowering average scores since 2021

    Location:
    London, UK
    Yes I think you're right and he probably, rather embarrassingly, fell asleep and she didn't. I think I presumed the 'hero' and woman slept together because I thought 'privately we danced' was a euphemism, but now I think it just means they danced in private, as opposed to in the nightclub! This is not Casanova... :doh:)
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2021
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  19. a paul

    a paul Forum Resident

    Location:
    London
    Happy Goth
    I half kinda assume that this is on the cheesier end of the scale for me, of has lyrics/topic I'm not that keen on (*coughs* Imaginary Friend), but I do quite like this. I haven't decided if I'd want it on my more serious album of AF+VFTCM, but it's a decent song. 4/5
     
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  20. jon-senior

    jon-senior Forum Resident

    Location:
    Eastleigh
    The Happy Goth

    Another one that - for me - has a bit of a disconnect between the lyrics and the music. It's very obvious when listening to the early bootleg performances of this song that it was written to be funny. Now, immediately, that'll mean it's not to everyone's tastes, but it's fine by me, and given that Regeneration was a bit dour (even its staunchest defenders would have to concede that), it's nice to hear some obvious enjoyment again. I was listening to a recording from the Ben Folds support tour (Seattle) a couple of days ago, and there are points where he pretty much pauses to allow laughter. I can also remember the song being discussed this way on the forum back in the day, and some people being very angry about it ("blacker than the blackest cloth is a tautology! Snows of Hoth is a Star Wars reference - he should be writing about EM Forster again", and so forth).

    But the studio arrangement doesn't seem quite sure how to translate that. There are elements that point in the right direction - the baritone sax line injects a note of humour, and backing vocals at the end of each verse almost point ahead to the Duckworth Lewis arrangements further down the track - but much of the rest seems to treats the subject a little too seriously. It's a hard line of course, as the lyrics also have some serious elements - the theme of alienation between parent and child is too deep to be played purely for laughs, but altogether the song feels like it wants to be humorous and serious at the same time, and as a result, it ends up not quite being either.

    Having said all that, it's a very pleasant listen. If you disengage your critical thinking and just enjoy the sound, there's a lot to enjoy, so it's more of a near miss than a failure. There's no disguising the fact that it doesn't really have an ending though! 3.5/5
     
  21. ericthegardener

    ericthegardener Forum Resident

    Location:
    Dallas, TX
    The Happy Goth

    I love the chords & melody for this song, but have always thought the lyrics were not quite worthy of the music. It's straddling that novelty song line. Seems a bit Tom Leher to me (whom I love, but he's very decidedly a humorist not a classic singer). The lyrics have bothered me less in recent years though and I just enjoy it for what it is. 4/5

    The "novelty song" thing is definitely an issue I struggle with regarding Divine Comedy. Most of the songs I enjoy least are songs that I see as having strayed too far to the wrong side of that line. Just a personal taste thing though, and there's more than enough DC songs that I love without issue to satisfy me.
     
  22. LivingForever

    LivingForever Forum Arachibutyrophobic Thread Starter

    Interesting you mention Tom Lehrer, as Neil was playing “I Hold Your Hand in Mine” live around this time, plus he later name checked him as someone he was aiming to emulate with some of the songs on “Bang Goes the Knighthood” ...
     
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  23. Vagabone

    Vagabone Forum Resident

    Location:
    UK
    I do have that problem with a lot of Divine Comedy songs, particularly on Bang Goes the Knighthood, but I never saw "The Happy Goth" in that light. I always thought of it as quite serious - maybe even too serious. Maybe I just didn't get the joke.
     
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  24. ericthegardener

    ericthegardener Forum Resident

    Location:
    Dallas, TX
    For me, it's not that the subject (teenage identity and parents reaction) is or isn't serious enough, it's just the whole idea, that a goth (known to the world as dark and serious) is actually - get this - secretly happy, is a bit jokey to me. As I said though, it bothers me less now and I really like the song.
     
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  25. Radiophonic_

    Radiophonic_ Electrosonic

    Location:
    Royal Oak MI
    "The Happy Goth": There is a hint of the novelty tune in the lyrics to this, which seems more like a b-side to me if anything. As a parent to a kid with actual depression as opposed to goth "depression," his blasé attitude telling me to "chill out" and "all the sensible people got over it" piss me off. No dude, I can't do that with my kid, and go **** yourself with the 'sensible' crap. And yuk yuk, there's a Star Wars gag too! His comments about the song make me dislike it much more than I did, so 0/5
     

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