Not a technics vs rega comment but a belt drive design comment. From an engineering standpoint the belt drive turntables that use a drive system where the belt is driving a large diameter pulley - e.g. the platter, the largest possible- is more speed stable than a turntable that is driven by a smaller diameter sub platter- by a significant factor. Turntables that use small diameter sub platters are a poor design from an engineering standpoint based on fundamental principals of pulley drive systems and ratios. see the linked thread as previously posted. yes, speed stability is key and requires a fundamentally optimized design if you are using a drive belt system. Turntable Belt Drive Analysis, Platter vs. Sub-platter
Looks like you’re hiding your equipment list but not your opinion. Not that My opinion matters at all.
My only bias is getting the best performance possible for the least amount of money. That's why I only buy used (let someone else eat the initial depreciation) and only recommend vintage (properly serviced) Japanese direct drive tables for anyone looking for something under $500. I am an opportunistic buyer. If I see a really good deal on something I think may sound better than what I already have, I buy it, run the two side by side for a month or two, keep the one I like best and sell on the other. I don't just do this for turntables, but also cartridges, phono stages, speakers, electronics, etc. Because I am also capable of servicing tables and rebuilding speakers myself, I have never lost money on anything I've bought and often make a modest return on my time and investment. This strategy has served me well as I've gradually worked my way up the food chain and now own a better turntable, cartridge and phono stage than I thought I'd ever be able to afford. I have never owned a Rega, or a current Technics. I have owned a few vintage Technics tables and just sold one on Monday (a beautiful vintage SL-1401) for a price far less than anything comparable new would cost. When it comes to recommending tables in the sub-$500 range, I always recommend a vintage Japanese direct drive model from the late 1970s - early 1980s. Technics is the most common, but all the big Japanese brands (Kenwood, Denon, Pioneer, Yamaha, Sansui, etc.) made well-built, reliable direct drive tables that were designed to be easily serviced, maintained and last a lifetime. Once serviced, they will perform like new and offer years of trouble free use. Above $500, and especially above $1000, it's more of a case-by-case, what's available decision. My "newest" table, and the best I've owned (so far), is a VPI HW-19 Mk3 that I picked up a month ago. Most people see it can't believe it will turn 25 in March. It looks brand new. I've owned several direct drive tables, a few belt drives, and even a couple idlers. For me, the quality of the design and construction, the tonearm, the plinth/suspension are all more important that the method of spinning the patter. As long as it holds speed and is silent, I don't care it it's a belt, a tire of a direct coupled motor. If I saw a really good deal on a P6/P8 or an SL-1200GR/SL-1200G, I'd buy it and compare to my VPI, just to satisfy my curiosity and potentially further improve my vinyl playback experience. Biases tend to cause people to miss opportunities, which is why I prefer to keep an open mind on these things.
Funnily enough, back in the day, Rolls Royce Motors didn’t publish the power output of their engines. This policy didn’t seem to do them any harm, however. If the car performed satisfactorily then it didn’t really matter. Having learned that receiving enjoyment from kit is far more important than how it measures, it seems to me that how a deck sounds is far more important than whether or not the manufacturer publishes wow and flutter data about it. Our ears will probably determine wow and flutter specs better than any electronic measuring device, anyway. If wow and flutter were audible issues for Rega then a series of bad reviews and lost sales would surely follow.
@SirAngus , just added my current setup for your approval. As you can see, even have a few belt drive tables. Some of my equipment list on other forums are in dire need of an update. LOL BillWojo
The objective of an automotive engine to power a vehicle is not the same as the objective of a turntable to spin a record accurately. I don’t care about car engine specs as long as the car goes. A turntable spinning at the wrong speed fundamentally fails to play music back correctly.
Sorry but no. If that were true we would have never had the Tone Poet controversy. Many people aren't pitch sensitive and can't hear even obvious flutter.
I’ll quibble . . . with your calculation. The difference in speed between 33.33 rpm and 33.59 rpm is 0.78%, not 1%. With these small numbers, I suggest that rounding up is ill-advised.
If you think about it...a belt drive is more wonky than a dd if it only pulls from a pulley to the opposite side of the platter, which means the platter always has some inordinate pressure at the center bearing from one direction - enough going on there to make you hope the bearing tolerances are very tight. AudioNote does belt drive right by having several pulleys and at least 3 points (I haven't seen one in a while and forget if it's 3 or 4) where the belt pulls on the platter unilaterally. Then there are some with multiple motors and belts, etc. to possibly achieve the same effect. Just thought I'd bring it up. Sorry, I was trying to resist this thread, in concept it's pretty stupid, but in reality it's like a black hole I guess...
On the contrary, the speed is key article I posted are not filled with bold faced lies at all. You just didn't like the final comments. And if the DD issue with constant speed adjustment has been fixed. Great! Sorry I hurt your feelings if "I choose" to ignore your fact filled post. Now, are we straight on the bold face lies accusation?
So show me one study with verified proof. Anybody can write crap if they want. That article sounds just like it was taken from the British audio press back in the day. A steady test tone played back on an o-scope would show any variations from speeding up or slowing down. Real easy to do. So find me the proof. If you want to make silly allegations than it's YOUR job to back them up. BillWojo
Well harby, i'd say #4, #5, #11, #12 with #18 leading the way for you. It's a cool game, can we all play? Did your town burn down yet?
This is probably true. Those that can’t tell the difference won’t be bothered, however, while those that can will notice if something is wrong, and won’t buy a TT with significant wow and flutter. In the end, manufacturers will always publish favourable figures, so it comes down to the ears to tell the truth.
I’m deeply relieved to know this. My point was about whether or not a manufacturer sees the need to publish technical data about their products. I have an interest in the power output of car engines, and I also have an interest in whether or not my TT has audible wow and flutter, but I’ve learned that, in the end, it’s how a product performs that actually matters, not what the published specification says.
Let the guy thinking what he want ... stop this no sense. The information for the newcomers it's already said, don't feed the troll.
I have no brand allegiance. Tested a few turntables, the Rega P8 sounded the best. Looked across the net, could only see five star reviews and very positive user feedback. But isn’t it strange how people who don’t own them or have never owned them insist they have all these issues? Rega produce turntables that are generally accepted to sound some of the best in their class, if not the best. That’s all that matters.
Read all the thread, the major part it's not about branding ... it's about direct drive vs belt drive (a no sense today, when the bad marketing about dd has stopped because great tt brands are creating dd tts, like SME or VPI). Generally it's difficult to like budget belt drives, but a rp8 it's a spectacular turntable. So, we need to end this amount of 80s disinformation right now. A good part of the records you're using was cutted in a technics sp10 direct drive motor, the great creation of Technics used in many record cutters ... because? ... nothing do the pitch/time like that motor. And the master record needs that like you need water. But the guy will not see any argument, only empty words and little tricks. It's a troll. Stop this. It's a no sense fight for direct drives are worst .. they're not. And technics and rega makes really good turntables, only try to save for a higher model. Turntables are mechanical devices, not electronics.
Please note that I am in no way criticising Technics in some of my comments in support of Rega. In the UK the Technics SL-1200GR is more expensive than the Rega Planar 6 and the Planar 3 almost half the price of the Technics. The Planar 6 can be set to 33.33 and runs stably at that speed. The latest (from 2016) Planar 3 measures better than any previous incarnation of RP3. Wow and flutter measurements are problematic simply because even specially pressed acetates aren't concentric yet alone standard LPs, if anyone can hear it on a current Planar 3, yet alone 6, 8 and 10 is an interesting point. From demonstrating hundreds of Planar 2s and 3s in the eighties and nineties, well over 95% including a member of a well known London orchestra simply did not notice the slight fast running. Of course this does not make it right and a very small majority will be sensitive to it, but in recent years Rega have improved this with the 24V motor and improvements to bearing houses etc. I have no personal experience of the current Planar 1 and Planar 2, though the spec of the later 2020, 40th anniversary seems good and once again has the 24V motor and not the old 110V motor. It is £399 in 2020 and was £125 30 years ago. Again if people haven't heard the 2020 model their opinions are not relevant to what Rega do now. A work colleague has the 1plus and is the best turntable he has heard, so that model works for some..... Roy Gandy has his own views on VTA, which I may not agree with, but respect. I fitted some shims to the old RB250 and RB300 which required the arm being removed - it was literally a 5 minute job. The vast majority of arms that I saw set by customers in the eighties and nineties had the VTA incorrectly set.... The new arrangement if you use split spacers is even quicker. I do understand that a detachable headshell is very convenient if you have a specialist mono cartridge and 78s in your collection, but buying 5-6 different cartridges bemuses me. A Rega Planar 6 with a budget cartridge outperforms a Rega Planar 3 with the best cartridge in the world, so personally losing 24 connections is a benefit not a hindrance. I could be very wrong, but for people who are forever swapping cartridges, it suggests to me their turntable / arm / cartridge is simply not meeting their expectations. Hopefully in the Internet age cartridge alignment and tightening is better, but in my experience over 50% of cartridges that customers had aligned were so loose that they moved with the slightest pressure and / or were completely misaligned. I personally believe that Rega's approach makes sense and is better than the horrendous Technics bodge of fitted shims under the headshell for very shallow cartridges, and running stacked mats probably negates most of the Technics W&F strengths too. I have had no connection to Rega for the past 25 years and rate the current Technics models, I'm just not so sure some Technics owners would be so negative towards Rega if they lived with a current model. I also believe that a Rega owner who has not heard a Technics any newer than a Mk 2 or 3 would be very pleasantly surprised. Sadly I haven't used a turntable at home since the birth of my son, so am using this as adult conversation in lock down!! I'm sure Technics and Rega owners can co-exist..... Debate, or ignore!! Happy listening to everyone. .
Way too much navel-gazing and crystal ball spec-reading and such a low level of personal experience and actual sound comparisons in this thread. Ridiculous. Listen to your hi-fi. Buy what sounds best to you. Don't say anything if you have no real experience with the actual kit. Talking based on specs and no experience is ridiculous.
Not printing specs doesn't appear to have done Rega too much harm over the last 45+ years! Roy Gandy is a good engineer, fascinating character and smart guy who loves his music - Rega have always made interesting products. In all my retail years I never saw a Rega advert, but look at how successful they are..... Our ears are wonderful measuring devices!
They are not, they are qualitatively different from measuring devices. But they (ears/brain) are a wonderful experience device. Something which measurements are not at all. It's good to take notice of specs, but to have opinions based on specs and no experience is completely ridiculous. And something often repeated. Why do so many (pretty much all) hi-fi engineers start with a good measuring designs and then tune them by ear? This practice is universal, and it has nothing to do with marketing logic of tuning/distinguishing your equipment from the other manufacturers. Even companies that strive for neutral equipment do exactly this. I've read and listened to conversations with numerous hi-fi designers who at some level of prototyping came up with a really good measuring kit, which completely failed their listening tests and required tuning which made the equipment sound better while it measured worse. I thought this debate has died with the 80s.
My ears are the only things i use to listen to music. If they are happy, so am i. I have no interest in "measurements".
Having done an apprenticeship and studied electronics as a sixteen year old, neither have I, but I do appreciate the R&D and effort companies put in to deliver great products. Having gone through lean and sigma training in recent years I do appreciate the "without measurements with are nothing", but I love the joy that listening to music through ears brings to me and countless others - that measurement is off the scale.
