To Neutral Speaker, or Not to Neutral Speaker...

And also, some of the consumer line use SL drivers as well. SCM19v2 for example has SL midwoofer.

From what i know there isn't any difference in their approach to home and pro audio. After all they've been known to say that what's good for the studio is good for the home.

I think with ATC it' fairly simple: take notice of the drivers in the speaker, if possible go active and go as big as your space dictates. They don't "tune" or approach their "entry" speakers differently than higher-end models. One of the reasons i like them.

IMO SCM19 (v2 if possible) and pro version, active SCM20 are the models where i'd start looking and go up from there

 

SCM19v2 has SL midbass:

SCM19 | ATC Loudspeakers

 

I don't know - A lot of recording and mastering engineers use the liked of ATC, PMC, Genelec in the studio and then don't like them much at all for when they are at home. Our forum host is one who has used ATC for decades in the studio and doesn't like them as much as his home speakers. Albeit they are cropping up in the studio now as well but the point is that ATC has a signature sound across many models just like all other speaker lines. I always enjoy my time listening to ATC - but I's a place I like to visit not a place I would want to live.

 

Rich, would you say you’re in the ‘romantic’ speaker camp at all?

Not a dis, I may find that I’m in it, too. I’m not even 100% sure what the degree of coloration is for the speakers I’ve loved hearing (such as the Spica TC50, Spendor BC-1, Apogee Duetta). .
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Well, of course. It's an apoproach. One i very much agree with conceptually and also enjoy practically. But like everything else - it's what you want from your home stereo. Like i've stated previouslt in this thread, personally i want as neutral sound as i can get, with no illusions that perfect neutrality exists in a real system. But it's an ideal i strive for. Basically that's what "hi-fi" means. High fidelity to the recording.

 

A number of ppl here seem to have the ATC SCM50 as their endgame speaker.
What specifically about them is so compelling?
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I look and listen to these things differently - there are no "accurate" speakers because accuracy is 2+2=4 and all speakers from everyone does not equal 4. One speaker may be a 7 and another one an 8 and you can argue that 7 is closer to 4 than 8 is but since it is not "accurate" you may as well choose the one that is more enjoyable longer.

The human brain is said to be partitioned into left brain (analytical) and right brain (artistic) and every person falls somewhere within the spectrum. So a left brain dominant person tends to be superior in maths, sciences, engineering, computers. If they are very dominant in the left hemisphere they will not be interested, generally, in the arts though they may still like music because of its association with math but they will be listening more in a formulaic manner. They respond to the mathematical elements of music. If they are really to the left hemisphere they may be high functioning autistic and super anal people who are always trying to get their stereo "just perfect" and spend countless hours measuring their gear to see if the wire lifter is making an impact.

Right hemisphere brain dominant people tend to be creative - poets, lyricists, visual artists and not terribly good at math. When they listen they are listening to music they focus on the music over the sonic traits of things like sound-staging and imaging and trying to get everything to line up just so. And then a whole lot of people are some sort of mixed bag in the middle of that as we all have two hemispheres and we all have some use from both sides of our brains.

My dealer at Soundhounds noted this with all the customers who bothered to actually listen - were they sit back in the chair close their eyes and listen to the music or were they the sorts who sat forward in the chair listening to the "image specificity" and trying to make sure that a violin was exactly four feet left of center - 3feet and it's a crappy imaging speaker - it must be exactly 4 feet damn it even though the recording is multi-miked and stuffed together in some studio and they actually have no way of know where the hell the violin is supposed to be.

Over the years most systems people have described to me as being accurate or neutral, come off as Bright/Edgy/Unlistenable to be quite frank. Almost all of these people over the years got rid of the various systems they were telling me were "accurate." Well if it was accurate why did you get rid of it? Again 2+2=4. There is only ONE right and absolute accurate answer to that question.

And so once people accept the fact that nothing is accurate (and not really all that close) then one can, if not too left hemisphere strong, can accept that hey since all speakers are grossly innacurate I can live with speaker B that is technically less accurate than speaker A if speaker B simply sounds better than speaker A. They can allow their right hemisphere a little more control.

It also doesn't help that we still cling to following whatever top monkey we view as a top monkey. So if i buy a great measuring system that is "measurements proof" then when I am on a forum I can never lose an argument because I have some graphs and charts and so and so who said it is better. I win you lose and tough beans. So on a forum where 8 other apes are all saying the same thing you can feel superior and gang up on the 1 ape who holds an opposing view. It's why forums started banning cable debates and DBT arguments because the forums have little cliques and gangs.

The system I salivated over when I started in this hobby was Bryston and PMC/Genelec because all this was used in the recording studio - measures well - can't lose internet arguments - has plenty of slam - .0001 THD or whatever - lol. Also, they have strong reviews and sales so how can you go wrong. If it were buying toasters this is the way I would go and do go.

Like I say - I get it. I listen to such systems as often as possible. The ATC and Parasound sounded really quite good and I certainly understand why the dealer is successful - Soundconcepts has been there since 1990. But I stopped chasing the numbers around 2000 when I was comparing Bryston and the NRC approved Paradigm speakers and PMC and Bryston and Classe amps of the world and decided that I would rather buy equipment that made me enjoy my music collection over gear that made me listen to the image specificity at the 3:07 second mark and listen for that bit where you can hear the trumpet spittle hit the floor on track 8 of X disc. And buying "show off" tracks of artists I could not stand (Patricia Barber) because some review magazine raved about the recording quality of some album.

 

Well, it looks like this (pretty interesting) thread is starting to wind down. A thanks to all who participated.

Looks like I'll be auditioning various ATC speakers before year-end. There's a lot that look like possibilities:

SCM 11 (passive 2-way standmounts; subwoofer later?)
SCM 19 (bigger passive 2-way standmounts; subwoofer later?)
SCM 19A (active 2-way towers)
SCM 40 (passive 3-way towers)
SCM 40A (active 3-way towers; expensive for 'gateway drug' ATCs)

There's even a couple of speakers in their 'Pro' line (SCM12, SCM 20) that look interesting, but word is that the sound is slightly more 'in your face' than the consumer line, and the aesthetics also aren't quite as good.

But, I'll hear the listed consumers ones at the least, and we'll see how it plays out. Neutrality is an excellent and logical concept on paper, but does it sound great IRL? And, can you live with it long-term? Hmm.
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The speakers maybe neutral but I doubt your room is! The room will always color your sound to some degree.

ATC are great speakers but make sure you demo in your own home, it is a complete waste of time listening to them at a dealers.

Do try Harbeths...

 

But do let us know your assessment in this thread

 

Oh yes, will do. Though it won’t be for several weeks.
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You forgot the Fourth Laws (actually a special case of the 3rd Law):
"Thou shalt not give opinions about audio products break-in to any human, lest they disassemble you"
Back to speakers, that's a subject near and dear to my heart since I began building them as a teen and decided to go to engineering school to become a loudspeaker designer. To me, the basic problem is ALL speakers are wildly inaccurate compared to all the other parts of the audio chain. And everyone-including speaker designers-have different hearing sensitivies and preferences.

Once you get to pricey stuff, I fell all the designers are trying to make "accurate" speakers but what that means will vary from designer to designer. Witness in another arena how every Mercedes I test drove back in the 2000s sounded pleasant, and every BMW sounded like vomit. (I drove pretty much everything in their lineups for radio/phone/navigation testing). Each designer or team picks different music as a reference, and listen in different listening rooms which (like some audio dealers) are acoustically far far nicer than your room perhaps to a point of irrelevance. I do think @Helom is onto something-spoken word from someone well known to you (a favorite books on tape reader or Howard Stern or whatever...hey @Helom what voice(s) DO you listen to?)

Anyway a friend worked for Harman/JBL on Revel and other projects, that brand tries to make "neutral" speakers. Perhaps also Genelec? The BBC followers are not making exactly neutral, since the enclosures are purposely a bit lively, but they are kind of neutral for broadcast I guess. I think they key thing is to buy nothing unless it has a reasonable return policy, since as I often say even the greatest speakers in the history of the universe may not sound good to YOU in YOUR system and YOUR room.

 

Mostly the voices in my head, although the one that barks is getting on my nerves.

 

I thought I had voices in my head, then I realized it was just my wife yelling...

 

Interesting thread and I'm not sure if I'm surprised how few people have heard current Linn speakers. The Linn Nexus going back to 1988 (my least favourite Linn speaker, but apparently at the time Linn's biggest seller in the US) and the Tukan more recently... 1993! These were replaced by the excellent Katan and Katan replaced with the current Majik 109 bookshelf speakers.

The floorstander Linn Majik 140 is a current Linn speaker and sells for £1,800 as a passive speaker available in a choice of wood finishes without face masks! AFAIK, those stocking coverings are only on the 520 / 530 models.



A work colleague runs these passively (cherry finish, not the above walnut) from a PrimaLuna integrated valve amplifier and is delighted with the results.

I've heard them both passive and active with Linn amplification and was very impressed. I haven't heard them in Exakt system, but a friend who has installed a few pairs says depending on the room, the improvements can be huge.

@Cyclone Ranger, until your comment about auditioning a new source first, my initial thought that whichever speakers you choose, they are extremely revealing and obviously can only reveal whatever the source allows. Both your dealer and yourself are obviously well aware of this.

Back in my retail days which is now 25 years ago, I was always a fan of ATC speakers and probably would have chosen them if I hadn't gone the Linn Keltik (fully active) route. Other speakers stocked were B&W, KEF, Proac and Rogers.

The last Linn Aktiv system I owned were Akurate 242s (which I had firstly passive). The improvements going active were massive. The 242s have very similar characteristics to the current Linn range, which apart from the Linn name, excellent finish and mechanical integrity, have very little in common with Linn speakers from particularly the seventies, eighties and to a lesser extent the nineties.

You cannot judge current Linn speakers from what they made 25 years ago.

A friend also owned the Akurate 242s and later an earlier version of the current 350s. Both sounded stunning.

Are Current Linn speakers "neutral". I have no idea, but a lot of the design comes from a classically trained musician who worked for the Linn records side of the business. Exakt technology allows Linn to match their speakers to the reference pair. Linn are fairly unusual as an independent company in investing huge sums in R&D, and at various times having their own artists recorded in staff owned recording studios and manufacturing very highly regarded Linn labeled CDs, and LPs converted using a Linn manufactured professional D/A and monitored through Linn speakers. Of course these can be played back through complete Linn systems. This doesn't make them neutral.

@Cyclone Ranger, will you like current Linn speakers? There is obviously only one way to find out and the only person's opinion that truly matters is your own.

Happy listening whatever you decide on.
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Always wondering how people know that speakers are “neutral”
You can probably get nearer if you buy the monitors the studio used for mixing
(Like current Abbey Road Studios = B&W Nautilus 800 or so, formerly Tannoy and EMI)
In the US it was a lot of JBL, in German speaking countries Klein & Hummel (today Neumann)

There were a lot of companies started by unhappy Musicians to make it more “true”.
Search for Crysler Living Voice (easy) and Rehdeko (very very rare)

Even then the whole electronics chain is not neutral, so what’s the point?

Linn are definitely not neutral, ATC probably better. Harbeth claims to be neutral in voices.

Have a look at ME Geithain speakers, they build the best studio monitors in the world.
They also have a weird looking home product. Said to be unbelievable good.
Be prepared to spend an arm and a leg ... may be trade in your wife as well. Terrible.

 

Many speakers are measured, so you can see how neutral they are in a neutral environment. Then your room has its way with things, but then you can measure fairly easily in your own room and see how things are. Everyone knows it's an ideal that doesn't exist in the real world, but a system that starts from a neutral point is more likely to give the whole range of recordings a fair shake. The more colored the whole system, the more you'll short some recordings and favor others, at least in theory.

 

Easy. Record your wife’s or children’s voices. Play them. Is it the same?
Room is not an issue if everything happens in the same room.
That’s btw what Alan Shaw claims he does ...

What is neutral? Flat? At what volume level - I assume you know about psychacoustic loudness curves?
Speakers sound horrible in an anechoic room, where they are measured. Really terrible. Shrill.
Can’t imagine that’s your ideal ...

 

It's certainly an interesting approach. And for sure, a flat response does in no way compensate for any common reality regarding the way we hear certain frequencies. That said, recording engineers are going to take these issues into account. I don't think I'd only focus on vocal frequencies, even a familiar voice. I've got little confidence in my ability to do a good job recording a voice. My home, in the evening, sits at about -40 dB—not so quiet.

What I've found is that different speakers in my room have the same issues—same nodes, same null. I'd never go looking for speakers with a huge 60 Hz bump just because my room has a null. I just move my seating position forward about 10 inches and take the results as the best I can get. I don't think my shoddy recording of my wife's voice is going to tell be how to mitigate that big problem.

I also really appreciate when people point out that flat response and soundstage don't always work best with the same speaker placement. To answer your question, I usually measure at around 80 dB simply because that is pretty much where I listen to music.

 

Speakers sound horrible in an anechoic room? Why's that? I'm not trying to argue with you, I've just never heard that before.

 

Amazing how time flies if the Tukans are that old. My buddy leaves them on bookshelves and they need it to reinforce the bass response, which only goes down to 60hz or so I think. And he's got a 200wpc Adcom 5500 driving them! They really need a subwoofer but he's more into keeping the audio gear out of site.

 

Frightening how the years fly by.

 

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I would hazard a guess, that room acoustics and reflected sound plays an important role in a speaker's final sound.

In an anecholic chamber most of the sound energy that would normally radiate and reflect in a normal listening room, would be absorbed.

However, high frequencies do not tend to radiate, they have a tendency to beam. So what you end up with is more HF hitting you directly, while the chamber attenuates the midrange and bass. This would result in tipped up treble.

 

In their homeland ATC certainly aren't a "stealth" product. Go to any Brit audio forum and there'll almost always be an ATC thread going on.