To Soundsmith or Not to Soundsmith...

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Bill Why Man, Nov 15, 2018.

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  1. Sedwards

    Sedwards Senior Member

    I know this was several months ago and don't know if you are still looking but I recently bought a Thorens 126 MKII with the TP-16 tonearm and have been on a cartridge hunt myself for the past several weeks. After switching out my TP-62 arm wand for the TP-63, I've mounted an Audio Technica VM750SH ($399 list) on it and I have to say it sounds absolutely wonderful. I've only had it up and running for a few days now, but lots of midrange detail, clean highs, good bottom end. The only denon I can compare it to is a 103R that I mounted in a wood body and had on my VPI Classic a while back. If memory serves I'm getting a similar approach and sonic signature (which I really like), but the AT is a big step up in detail and gives me a greater range. I'm very happy with the AT on the Thorens. In fact. I also ordered the VM610MONO for a 2nd TP-63 arm I picked up and tried it out just this morning on some Stones mono lps and I was shocked at the sound quality. It's my first foray into mono cartridges, but for $129 I couldn't believe it sounded as great as it did. I'm sold on this AT VM line! Might even get the 78 version next.

    But speaking of Soundsmiths...... The Thorens is my second table in my system. My primary table is a VPI Classic Signature. My first experience with Soundsmith was a Zephyr that I had on my Classic I about 3 years ago. I had it on there for about a year and them moved it onto my Classic Signature when I first got it. I was never real happy with the Zephyr. Thought it was dull and lifeless. Nice midrange, but no slam, nothing sparkling about the highs. Maybe it was setup, but sold the Zephyr and I moved onto an AT Art9 and loved it. About 4-5 months ago I saw the sales on the Soundsmiths and decided to try out a Paua. Figured everyone always raves about it and maybe the Zephyr was just not my cup of tea. I've also gotten a lot more adept at setting up cartridges since I had the Zephyr, so maybe that was an issue. The Paua is still mounted on my VPI - I've probably put only about 50 hours on it in the past few months while getting this Thorens up and running. But as much as I try and want to love this cartridge, I'm still finding it lacking - it just doesn't inspire me. Maybe Soundsmiths just aren't for me - I'm having a lot more fun with a $400 cartridge on my vintage Thorens than I do with a $6K table with a $4K cartridge!

    I'm going to give the Paua some more time and try some adjustments, but may end up selling it and going back to my Art9 or searching for another cartridge for my VPI that is a lot more lively than the Soundsmith . My advice is to try out the AT VM's if you haven't pulled the trigger on a Soundsmith yet. I hear the 540ML at $249 is also a great performer at a great price.
     
    macster and Bill Why Man like this.
  2. Benzion

    Benzion "Cogito, ergo sum" Forum Resident

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY
    Good to know.
     
  3. gguy

    gguy Forum Resident

    Location:
    Wildomar, CA
    I had the same experience with the MIMC star. I sold it and picked up an Art9 and haven’t looked back
     
    avanti1960 likes this.
  4. avanti1960

    avanti1960 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago metro, USA
    If you are looking for more than the ART9 check out the Ortofon Cadenza line. I had the ART9 and loved it but the Cadenza Blue is more transparent, neutral and dynamic.
     
  5. Sedwards

    Sedwards Senior Member

    I remember your comments on the ART9 thread - inspired me to give it a try and really do enjoy that cartridge. No thought of selling it. I also see your more current comments on the Ortofon. I thought you went with the Bronze? I have it on my list, along with the Dynavector 17DX and the Hana ML. Was also looking into a Kiseki Purple Heart but from what I'm reading about it I'm not convinced its for me. I want something with a little kick behind it.

    Never had any of the Ortofons, but ironically I just took delivery on a spare TP-63 wand for my Thorens from a seller in Germany and it unexpectedly showed up with a nice Ortofon VMS20E MkII cartridge w/ stylus mounted on the end of it. I'll have to give it a listen on the Thorens when I get a chance for a feel for Ortofon.
     
  6. Bill Why Man

    Bill Why Man Forum Resident Thread Starter

    I’m still on the hunt!

    I have definitely chosen not to Soundsmith. The lack of arm-matching, mixed reviews (such as yours), and lackluster communication from Soundsmith convinced me to look elsewhere.

    I actually debated putting a new arm into my Thorens (Jelco 550S) to give me more flexibility with cartridge choice. But I have limited experience with the arm and with mods. I asked on the forum about the arm, but did not receive too many informative replies. I also received lackluster communication from a Jelco dealer. The cost also seemed prohibitive compared to other moves I could/should make. Perhaps it was best in that regard.

    And then I purchased a Parks Audio Puffin phono preamp.

    My Mc internal preamp was often a bit glitchy. After great communication with Shannon Parks, I was convinced to give it a shot with the easy return policy. I’ll save a full review of this spectacular preamp for another time. As far as carts are concerned, the Puffin drew me toward two conclusions:

    1) The Puffin brought out the power in my Denon DL-110 cart. The detail, the musicality, the slam...I could go on and on.
    2) My 110 is nearing the end of the road. The Puffin offers me exceptional cart flexibility. It’s time to make the jump to LOMC.

    I’ve been drawn to the Denon 103. I’ve been enjoying the 110’s and 160’s for years. The 103 is a legendary cart, still rates terrific reviews, and is even a better price value than the HOMC Denons. I’m wondering if the 103R is worth the extra cost. I love the possibilities regarding modding the 103. Other forum members rave about the Zu mod, etc. At first, I think I’d go basic just to hear its house sound. I have a feeling I’d dig it.

    However, your Audio Technica review is something for me to consider. I’m definitely going to do some research on them.

    Thanks for the constructive advice,

    Bill
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2019
  7. Benzion

    Benzion "Cogito, ergo sum" Forum Resident

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY
    I have three Jelco arms in use: 370H with a Shure M97HE(NOS), an Audioquest PT-6 (modded OEM 250S) with a Zu Denon 103, and a 750E (10") with Denon DL-110. I have nothing but praise to heap on Jelco arms. I have not owned any hi-end super-tonearms out there, but, with Jelco's at my disposal, I feel no need to. Even though I have no first-hand experience with the 550, I can pretty much vouch it will be a great arm - it's a Jelco, after all. For good prices on Jelco arms, there are a couple of reputable eBay dealers in Japan and Hong Kong. The one I bought my 750 from has three of them listed now:

    2juki:
    JELCO TS-350S 9" Static-Balance Tonearm. Come Without cable. Made in Japan | eBay

    JELCO TK-850S 9" Knife Edge type Tonearm, Made in Japan | eBay

    JELCO TS-550L 12" Static-balance Oil Damping Tonearm, Made in Japan | eBay
     
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  8. Sedwards

    Sedwards Senior Member

    I never had the 103 but still do have my 103R and its another cartridge that I have no intention of parting with. I can't use it on my Thorens are its a top mount (unless I drill all the way through the wood body) but at some point I'll stick it back on my VPI. I have a wide-ranging taste in music and the 103R lets me thoroughly enjoy a lot of different genres equally as its a great, all around cartridge.
     
    Bill Why Man likes this.
  9. Bill Why Man

    Bill Why Man Forum Resident Thread Starter

    That’s great praise, indeed! And it’s nice to know that Denon carts work well with the Jelco arms.

    I’m leaving HOMC city behind for the LOMC express. My path is heading toward switching from a Denon DL-110 to a Denon DL-103. Since you clearly have experience with both, what differences have you noticed between the two carts? And can you make any comparisons between the original 103 with the modded Zu edition that you have? Ultimately, I’m wondering: Is it a good move?

    Any constructive info is greatly appreciated.

    Thanks,

    Bill
     
  10. Bill Why Man

    Bill Why Man Forum Resident Thread Starter

    That’s good to know about the Thorens headshell and a modded 103. I hadn’t thought about that. Perhaps I shouldn’t get too crazy cart mods just yet. Thanks!
     
  11. Benzion

    Benzion "Cogito, ergo sum" Forum Resident

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY
    I never owned the stock 103 - went straight for the Zu version. What makes it better is a heavier and damped body, plus careful tweaking/matching. The Zu website outlines it all - that's what sold me on it.

    To compare the two would be difficult for me - I use them on two different arms, two different tables, and to play distinctly different styles of music. 103 is on the belt-drive AR table and plays nothing but acoustic jazz with a tube amp and full range speakers. 110 is on a Denon DD deck, and plays mostly fusion, electric jazz, and some rock, with a powerful SS amp and three-way "British sound" towers.

    They sound totally different, but I love them both dearly. FWIW, the 110 is probably more dynamic - but it may have to do with being in a more dynamic system, to begin with. 103 is more subtle - and more suited to Jazz/acoustic.
     
    Bill Why Man likes this.
  12. Bill Why Man

    Bill Why Man Forum Resident Thread Starter

    I love your systems. If I still lived in Brooklyn, I’d impose for a listen! Thanks for your honest appraisals. After much consideration, I’m going to start with the basic Denon 103. If I dig it, I’ll take the mod road from there.

    Chag Sameach (Coming Up!),

    Bill
     
    Benzion likes this.
  13. Benzion

    Benzion "Cogito, ergo sum" Forum Resident

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY
    Chag Sameach! Thank you!

    If you ever are in Brooklyn - you're welcome for a listening session.
     
  14. Wired4Fun

    Wired4Fun Forum Resident

    Location:
    Cary, NC
    Love my MIMC Star :)
     
    F1nut likes this.
  15. Sedwards

    Sedwards Senior Member

    OK, I'm quoting myself above here, but in all fairness to Soundsmith I just had to post this follow up from my earlier critique of my Paua. I ended up reaching out to Peter Ledermann at Soundsmith and he responded with some tips related to setting the anti-skate on my VPI arm as well as some other advice. He said that proper anti-skate adjustment was critical for his cartridges and that VPI's anti-skate instructions were all wrong. I actually had to add a metal nut to the anti-skate arm to get enough weight to slow down the swing of the arm. During our back and forth I sent him a close up pic of the stylus on the surface of the LP with the tonearm level and he asked me to drop the cartridge off to him for an adjustment. He had it a day and told me I could pick it up. I went back there this Monday. He had my cartridge mounted on his VPI in his listening room and played a couple of tracks for me. The sound was great (and what an amazing array of tables and other equipment in that room!!!!). I set the cartridge back up this Monday afternoon on my own VPI, was meticulous about alignment, went through his anti-skate adjustments and the Paua is now giving me what I hoped for - very dynamic, lots of detail across the spectrum. The bottom end is tight and punchy. This is what I had expected after all the rave reviews online for this cartridge! And Peter was a great guy to deal with.

    Interesting tidbit - when I told him that I was about to pull the trigger on a fozgometer to deal with azimuth he said not to bother, it doesn't work with his cartridges. He said to set azimuth by eye and then fine tune by ear.
     
    Tlay, lsipes1965, Twinsfan007 and 4 others like this.
  16. IanL

    IanL Senior Member

    Location:
    Oneonta, NY USA
    When you said you wanted something more lively, I was wondering what was up. Lively is is one of the first words I would choose to describe my Zephyr.
     
    AKA-Chuck G likes this.
  17. Uglyversal

    Uglyversal Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sydney

    I can tell you my experience because I had the 103 and 110, more than one. What I am going to say will probably add more confusion. I think at the end you just need to try it yourself and see how it performs in your system. Many years ago with what I was using mainly a Technics SL D2 plus a variety of lesser equipment, my choice between the two then was the 110, the top end made it a much better cartridge and there was more detail too, the 103 might have had better bass and mids then but definitely lacked in the highs.

    With what I use now, which can be too long to list a good part of the difference compared to before is what comes after the TT I find I like more the 103. There is still less detail than with the 110 but the 103 sound just right and is more dynamic. I can never take away from my mind the idea that it might damage my records due to the large round stylus so I do have my misgivings. I am at a point which I don't want anymore 110's, I could consider an improved 103 by having soundsmith to retipp it but I am also considering moving onto something else. Either way I think both cartridges have their strengths and at the price they are a bargain. If you change from one to another or the Soundsmith -which you've already gave up on- any feeling of an upgrade will be down more to your taste and how they interact with your system rather than a real upgrade. If you want something really better, you need to dig deeper.
     
  18. Try1256

    Try1256 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Winter Springs, Fl
    I finally got the anti skate dialed in properly on my Aida and it made an amazing difference.
     
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  19. Cliff

    Cliff Magic Carpet Man

    Location:
    Northern CA
    Wish I read this thread earlier... I have been on the hunt for a decent cart with very good treble extension and it led me to the MIMC Star. But I will tell you, the highs are absolutely rolled off :( It's a bit dull sounding even at 1k ohms. I was hoping for more extension from it than the Benz Wood SL but not over-doing it like the Lyra Delos. So I'm definitely a bit disappointed as I listen to a lot of heavier guitar-themed music (rock/metal). If anyone has experience with the kind of sound I'm after, I'd love to hear your opinion(s)! Thanks.
     
  20. plastico

    plastico Forum Resident

    Location:
    ontario canada
    You would like the AT ART 9. This cart sounds very balanced yet can rock out and jazz out when required! I am thrilled with mine.
    Cheers, Doug
     
  21. gguy

    gguy Forum Resident

    Location:
    Wildomar, CA
    From the MIMC star I went to the ART9, it's great and got me much closer to what I was looking for, but was still a little more laid back than I'd like (I mostly listen to rock/metal). Based on a recommendation from avanti1960, I found a lightly used Ortofon Cadenza Blue. I've only put an hour or so on it, but so far it's hit the mark.
     
  22. Try1256

    Try1256 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Winter Springs, Fl
    What tone arm do you have?
     
  23. Cliff

    Cliff Magic Carpet Man

    Location:
    Northern CA
    10" 3D arm with Discovery (copper) wiring.
     
  24. Cliff

    Cliff Magic Carpet Man

    Location:
    Northern CA
    Although the Bronze was near the top of my list, I went researching after you posted this. Sure enough, I read something from a high up Ortofon guy on that other audiophile forum, that the Blue is the most (treble) extended cart in the Cadenza lineup. Which is exactly what I'm after. Thank you for the recommendation!
     
  25. Try1256

    Try1256 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Winter Springs, Fl
    Seems like that would be a good match. Do you have the anti skate kit?
     
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