To SUT or not to SUT with a Denon DL-103?

What the Denon 103 versions gain with rebodying and repotting is greater clarity and incision - and I always offer the caveat that many listeners won't be satisfied with the conical stylus (though it is a quality polished conical). The stock cartridge's "lossy" plastic body (although an intentional design feature, staring from when the cartridge was used as a broadcast element) is what hinders it more than a bit now, with the more precise bearings in use in most contemporary tonearms. I don't mind a conical stylus - they're musical and pretty easy to set up - but I grant that most listeners will want more detail than it offers. There is a robust secondary market for modders and retipping the Denon 103/103R, and it speaks to the broad appeal of the basic Denon generator. The user will probably need to add mass somewhere on most tonearms. I found adding a headshell shim of 3 grams to the rebodied Denon (even as it was around 15 grams) on my Audiomods tonearm brought the cartridge's sound more into focus - I rarely get mistracking distortions on challenging material, and most of the issues come with the frequency or groove limitations of the conical (that's mostly on end-of-side classical material, which doesn't form a large part of my listening).

As blakep mentioned above, the extreme contact styli may offer plenty of detail, but he found the Soundsmith top-of-the-line a bear to set up, and I concur. I have a Denon 103D (also a great cartridge) that I bought because it had a sheared-off cantilever. I had Soundsmith install their finest stylus with sapphire cantilever...oy vey, that damned thing was a hassle and a half to set up, and I'm afraid it now resides in storage - an expensive and frustrating trial. I'm not too proud to say that I'm aware of my, er, limitations with very demanding cartridge setup and fine-tuning, and am okay with conical and elliptical styli now.

 

I used Paradox the last time I rebodied a cartridge, but he's changed his design, and is asking quite a bit for the new iteration. Those Musik Kraft shells look great, but don't add the mass many users need to make best use of the Denons on many tonearms. I note that Jeff Day, the Positive Feedback reviewer, and Art Dudley, for that matter, reviewed the Musik Kraft Denon shells by using relatively heavyweight tonearms, so would be able to hear the Denon in a congruous setting.

 

I understand that for a MC coupled directly to the gain stage.

But it's not the same with a SUT becuase (I would think) that the SUT wants to see a particular load attached to its secondary. I was wondering if SUTs are designed to be couple with some capacitance in addition to the 47k resistor.

 

To be fair to Peter at Soundsmith, I think he does try to make people aware that his top of the line OCL stylus is finicky to set up. Unless you have had one, though, and compared it even to other exotic stylus profiles (as well as the Soundsmith OCL, I've had retipped cartridges with the regular Soundsmith line contact on ruby, as well as a traditional microridge on boron and a laser drilled and mounted microridge on sapphire cantilevers from Andy at Phonocartridgeretipping.com) you cannot possibly understand how difficult it is to dial the OCL in. And I use a Mint LP protractor.

The problem with the OCL is that it seems ultra sensitive not only to azimuth and alignment, but also to miniscule changes in VTA/SRA as well as VTF. Without a doubt, as well as requiring perfect alignment and azimuth, it had an extremely narrow window with respect to both VTA/SRA and VTF, both of which change when you change the other parameter. Unless everything was pretty much "nailed" on the setup, the cartridge/stylus had a tendency to not just sound not absolutely dialed in, but to actually sound pretty bad.

The other (still exotic) stylus profiles that I mentioned above, including Peter's standard line contact, exhibited very little of that and are, by comparison, quite easy to set up with a bit of patience and the right tools IMO and also much more forgiving of a less than perfect setup.

The standard Soundsmith line contact probably gives you 80-90% of the detail of the OCL without any of (or at least very limited) the hassles of setup.

Likewise, Andy's boron and sapphire microridge combos (which I have used on other cartridges but not the Denon) are also very easy to set up; I think his laser mounted MR on sapphire gets you pretty much all of the detail of the OCL (possibly because of its very low tip mass due to the laser mounting of the stylus) while still being very musical and extremely easy to setup. I see Peter is offering a laser/line contact sapphire now, which he was not a few years ago-that looks like a very interesting option at a pretty reasonable price.

But I can see how someone might actually be turned off retipping if their only experience was with the Soundsmith OCL; it really is a nightmare to set up in my experience. Others might not have as much difficulty.

I think conicals work with mono records (I wasn't even sure of that until recently but am coming around to that mindset) but I could no longer do stereo records with a conical. Just too much missing information. Fortunately there are a lot of options now for those that like the 103 and 103R.

 

Yes, and to be fair, I was aware of Peter's admonition - I was also just confident it couldn't be that hard. It was. The Audiomods tonearm I have, while more versatile setup-wise than a standard Rega, just isn't made to accommodate the demands of a very precise stylus. I'm not terribly interested in adjusting shims using bits of paper or tiny o-rings to get azimuth precisely right.

I've had Andy Chong retip another 103 I have with a hyperelliptical stylus, and use that from time to time when I do want a bit more sparkle up on top. If I had it to do over, I would have gone with one of the less extreme styli options, that's for sure. I keep thinking someday I'll have that 103D redone with a less demanding tip.

 

How do you feel about the Audiomods arm you're using? Blank VPI "super" arm boards for my HW-19 mkiv are hard to come by, so I'm resigned to using a drop in replacement for my Rega when I upgrade. Audiomods and Origin Live are a couple of the most obvious choices I've been looking at.

 

It's an effective modification of the Rega arm, but not for someone who has demanding accompanying gear, IMO. I bought it second-hand from a seller on Audiogon, and it was in excellent condition. I've dealt with Jeff Spall a couple of times for other things, and he was always very accommodating and easy to deal with. The guy who originally purchased it from the UK had it made up with silver tonearm wiring, so I have no comparison with any other wiring on it. With hindsight, I'd probably now go with a detachable headshell style of arm. The pound has been pretty strong for a while now against the dollar, so an American buyer would be contending with that.

 

103R Prices seem to have jumped way up on ebay, so I put my original back since I missed it so much. For as long as I can remember, I've Bob's SUT on High, and don't call spending much time on Low. After a few days on Low, though, it's quite obviously the way to go. While very musical on High, Low seems more extended and open with more sparkle and sheen on cymbals. Thanks!

 

The math doesn't lie. Low is a better match for the Denon 103R cartridge. I am glad you tried it and like it.

The High setting would suppress the high frequencies and compress dynamics, which is probably why it sounds "musical". Actually I would call it "soft and bland".

 

This is good to know...my current arm is an Origin Live modded RB300...I think I'd need to take quite a step up to warrant a real improvement.

 

Hey guys. Confession time. I broke my trusty DL103 during my attempt to separate it from the Audiomods copper shim I had CA'd it to. It seems like every time you want CA to make a strong bond, it sucks, but then, when you've got a nice cart involved, it's bonded at the molecular level. Anyway, I realize now I shoulda soaked it in acetone first. Live and learn.

SO. As a result of that misfortune, and since I already had a Paradox Pulse body, I pulled the trigger on a channel -matched DL-103r, which I immediately denuded and fitted to the Paradox Pulse body.

I've seen accounts online of folks being all nonchalant about the process of denuding , and then installing a Denon into an aftermarket body. Allow me to disabuse y'all of the notion that those accounts are anything but "fake news" propagated by Russian agents intent on lowering our domestic satisfaction quotient.

Anyhow, I managed, somehow, not to eff it up, and got the cart epoxied into the body. It was immediately apparent to me that these carts need break in time: the 103R was strident and tight and constricted at first. I was disappointed. It sounded like my whole system was holding its nose.

I looked into the break in time these carts need, and saw lots of "50 hours" comments. I played that mofo on test records all day, every day, and in the dead wax overnight, because I had earned the right to whatever I wanted to that cart. I don't know how much you guys get to spin vinyl, but for me, 50 hours is a real long time. And I work at home. In front of my stereo.

Anyhow, I've prolly got 10-15 hours of actual playing time on it, and maybe 35 or overnight deadwax time. There is ABSOLUTELY a difference. I'm finally getting that midrange we love about the 103, but with what I would describe as a more extended, more refined top end. I have to disagree with the Zu marketing copy that referred to the rebodied 103R as having merely increased "treble energy."

I guess I can see where they're come from (as a marketing guy)...the magic of these carts is in the huge and colorful midrange, but the 103R, at least as I have it, denuded and epoxied into a Paradox Pulse body, is a significant step up from the 103. It is still improving, so I'll withhold further comment for now...but my dime-store take is that the 103R sounds like a more hi-fi version of the 103, and I mean that in the best way possible.

 

I used a Denon AU-340 SUT. It was very good. Built a tube amp and it sounds perhaps a tiny bit better, but never could get the hum out.

 

Yep, this is why I have a strict anti-DIY policy in audio. Everybody on the internet told me it was going to be a breeze to install the LED light kit in my McIntosh amp. That ranks in my top #3 mistakes of all time I think.

 

I know my limits. I look at all the steps and as soon as I see something where the risk isn't worth it, I just bring it to a pro. He gets money, I get it done right the first time and without any stress on my end.

 

Some of that probably also comes down to system compatibility and synergy. I find them more close than anything else, but maybe I don't have the right ancillaries to throw the differences into starker relief.

If that first cart isn't really broken (i.e., coil wires snapped, generator bent out of shape, etc.), maybe a good phono cartridge repair service can put in right and house the thing in another case.

I'm glad it came out in the wash for you. I still think Denon 103 and 103R carts are a damned solid bargain for the vinyl enthusiast.

 

Having read a fair number of the responses hear is very heartening indeed. I bought a Koestu Urushi Tsugaru a few days ago and bought a CineMag 20 from Bob's Devices yesterday. It should be here by Monday and I'm really looking forward to hearing the combo in action.

 

If one can find a Luxman 8020 on the used market..it's fantastic, I can't imagine anything bettering it. I use mine with an AudioNote tube phono stage
Luxman AD8000 on thevintageknob.org

 

How to make your MC cartridge sound the best =

 

Beavis- Did you try the Bob's SKY w/ the Denon by any chance. I figure a fair comparison for A23 would be at least Cinemag Blue or Sky, of which Bob recommends Sky 20 w/ the 103. Cheers -Don

 

I have a Rothwell Headspace that is transistor based and allows changes to load and gain so you are not trapped into 1 type of LO MC cart. Sounds pretty awesome. About $370 shipped.

 

This is not meant as a threadcrap, so I hope nobody takes it that way...

I have been using a Denon 103 the last several years with an Auditorium 23 SUT. First a Zu 103 mkII, and then a retipped (by Soundsmith) Denon 103 using boron cantilever and contact line stylus mounted in a Ewe panzerholz body. The retipped 103 offered more detail and much better tracking than the Zu with standard stylus.

Although these cartridges with this SUT are obviously capable of making good sound on many records, I never totally fell in love with the combo compared with my previous Dynavector 20x2L (which I used on a different, lighter arm, on a previous turntable). I made the switch to the Denons when I moved to the Thomas Schick 12-inch tonearm. My issues with the Denon 103 are a lack of resolution (although the retip does help in that regard) and mediocre bass and treble performance. Some records did sound very nice, but others just sounded congested and sort of dead. Lacking in tonal separation, spatial cues, and texture, especially outside of the mid tones.

I thought my only options for low compliance cartridges on this tonearm were the Denons and the SPUs. But I accidentally stumbled upon a review by Jeff Day of the Soundsmith Zephyr mkIII, and he was using it on the same arm that I use. A little research revealed that Soundsmith’s upper level cartridges tend to be low compliance, and mostly low output. All are moving iron designs (which I had no prior experience with). But the Zephyr mkIII is a high output model. I would have gone for their low output model if I knew for sure it would be a great match for my A23 SUT, but I wasn’t sure so I went for the high output model (which also is $500 cheaper than the low output Zephyr).

If you shop around (in my case Elusive Disc, with a cheapo cartridge trade-in), it was $1000. But it is cheaper to retip than the Denons (or at least cheaper than the more advanced options). So it is a $1000 investment up front compared to, what?, $500 for a Zu or $300 for a stock 103? I can’t remember what I paid for mine now. But it is cheaper than the A23 SUT, which you don’t need with the high output cartridge.

And for the extra cartridge cost, you get a much better cartridge (IMO). And it is not really close. Midrange is at least as good, but with more detail and texture. Channel separation is on a whole different planet, which I never realized the payoff in superb imaging and spatial cues. Did I mention detail? Everywhere? Articulation and texture and clarity in the bass is the single biggest improvement for my personal tastes. And sweet refined highs. I guess I just never paid much attention to Soundsmith before. Never realized they made cartridges that would work on my arm either.

I just wanted to mention this option to those that need a low compliance cartridge, especially if you haven’t purchased a SUT yet. I’m glad I tried this new cartridge out and I vastly prefer it over my Denons (and even my Dynavector, which won’t work on my arm now anyway). Oh yeah, and for those, like me, who heard LOMC and forever swore off MM cartridges after that, I don’t find the moving iron (they call it fixed coil) sound to be like MM at all, even with the high output. To me it sounds much more like LOMC, although better than the examples I have experience with, which admittedly are not the upper echelon LOMCs available.

 

Have you tried retipping the Zu? That's my next step.

 

No, my Zu has plenty of life left in the original stylus, but it doesn’t matter because I don’t think I’ll ever listen to it again.

 

The only Soundsmith-manufactured cartridge I've heard (and it was one of the older models, I can't remember which) was really not for me. Perhaps the newer models address the sort of clinical sound I heard from it. I know he'd made some lower-compliance models for Oswald Mill when they distributed the Schick tonearm, and perhaps he made some changes to his sonic "presentation".

 

You shouldn't - I'd pass on the A23 SUT to your pal Rolltide, in fact.