'Tone Poet' Jazz Reissue Series*

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by cds23, Dec 23, 2018.

  1. bjlefebvre

    bjlefebvre Forum Resident

    Location:
    Washington DC-ish
    Getting slightly off topic, but on that tangent, I remember the RSD feeding frenzy over the Craft Art Pepper mono. Now there are oodles of that title available on Discogs for shop price.

    Back onto topic - received my mono and stereo BT in the mail. I'll try giving at least one of them a listen tonight, probably stereo. I originally settled on just buying the mono, but that Udiscover 40% of sale convinced me to try both flavors.
     
    mktracy, Jasonbraswell and rcsrich like this.
  2. headtheory

    headtheory Forum Resident

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    IIRC his first use of Coltrane Changes was on the album Bags & Trane — the track "Three Little Words".
     
  3. Mark J

    Mark J Forum Resident

    Location:
    Boca Raton, FL USA
    I think you are confusing the high profile this album has had since the 1970s/80s with it's initial impact. I have seen no evidence that this was a big seller for BN when it was released, or even 5 or 10 years later. Jimmy Smith was their big money item, I believe Horace Silver and Art Blakey sold well, also more soul oriented singles by Horace Silver, Ike Quebec, Bennie Green, etc. It does not appear to have been a game changer for the label for profit or notoriety. That would have been Lee Morgan's Sidewinder in 1963, followed by Lou Donaldson's Alligator Boogaloo.
     
    Biff Jones, Stu02, Aeryn Sun and 7 others like this.
  4. Dubmart

    Dubmart Senior Member

    Location:
    Bristol, England
    If you look at how many times they repressed it early on it obviously sold well, I believe "Somethin' Else" was another big seller to add to your list and I think the Rollins titles did reasonable business, I'm also surprised by how often I've found early copies of "Out To Lunch", that must have exceeded expectations for the label.

    London Jazz Collector did an interesting piece on "Blue Train", lots of variations and therefore lots of pressings to satisfy demand: In Search of The Blue Train
     
  5. ShamPain

    ShamPain Well-Known Member

    Location:
    IN, USA
    Thanks for the constructive engagement, I mean that. :)

    My biography with jazz is a bit convoluted, so I'm not going to go into all of it, but since it may be a little different from the "typical" person in these threads I'll mention a couple of things. I am of the age where the Ken Burns's Jazz doc and 90s swing revival both came around at formative ages for me. I go back and forth on whether this was good or bad. On the "bad" side, those are not really the best ways to get into jazz, from an artistic and intellectual standpoint. On the "good" side, there wasn't a whole lot of other cultural interest in jazz back then, at least in my circles, so if it wasn't that it might have been nothing. I could bond over swing with my grandparents, who were into Glenn Miller back in the day, and my parents (paranoid about "bad influences") wouldn't mind. So I actually started out listening to a lot of NOLA, Dixieland, and swing.

    Ultimately I'll take the "good" side on the above question, because that at least got me focused on Louis, Duke, Django, and a few other notables early on. Then, because I am attracted to subcultures, I got into Beat literature as a teenager and that led me to bebop (Prez, Bird). Basie's band was an important connective tissue for me b/t swing and later styles, but Dizzy was really big for me as a pathway from bebop into later bop and other styles.

    So I didn't hear BT, or even KOB, until I already had some sense of its historical and artistic context. Then, as a somewhat older but still young music snob, ie the College Years, I went pretty deep into Miles and Coltrane. This was the CD-burning era, and I was fortunate to have a few older friends who kept me supplied with jazz (and blues, and other genres) as part of an informal education, but none of them were jazz "heads" per se. So I would get mid-level exposure to BN and some of the other indie labels, but the majority of what I was exposed to was on the majors (Columbia, Atlantic, Impulse, some Verve too). I was a performing (rock) musician and music critic during this period, so music was what most of my life revolved around. I gravitated towards independent labels and more expressive writers/performers in all genres, so jazz's early history here was always appealing on that basis, but there wasn't a lot of interest in it in my circles, and online communities were still forming. I did commission a painting of Eric Dolphy by an acquaintance maybe 15 years ago, but nobody else I knew had any idea who that was.

    Music is not what most of my life has revolved around in recent years, but I've been re-prioritizing it more recently following some unfortunate health news, which has made my long-run career plans somewhat moot (and thus reduced my time/attention to my work, freeing up more of both to get back into music in a more serious way). So this year (2022) I've been systematically trying to beef up the jazz part of the vinyl collection -- I have several thousand LPs, but a fairly small percentage of that was vinyl previously -- while also filling in the gaps in my education. The Tone Poets and Classics have been great for that, along with other reissue series, although I already knew enough to know at least the bigger albums by the Mobleys and Gordons and Morgans. I didn't know the Jack McDuffs and Reuben Wilsons and John Pattons and Don Wilkersons, however, so those discoveries have been especially fun.

    As for favorites... as these long comments might suggest, I care more about how things fit together than trying to work out some discrete rank-ordering system. I tend to think of the jazz ecosystem during this period in terms of a constantly-evolving social network -- some of my job involves doing complex network analysis, so my mind naturally goes there -- which lends itself to thinking in terms of systems rather than rankings. This is especially true for the Blue Note "network".

    So I kind of love it all, taken as one big interactive unit, more than any of its individual pieces. But I know that's a cop-out answer, so a few specifics: I actually like the organ trio format, possibly because I love Grant Green's tone/bite and he's on a lot of them ("Idle Moments" is one of my favorite BNs too, both song and album). I love Joe Henderson's richness and sense of urgency. I find the Jazz Messengers endlessly fascinating. Kenny Clarke is hugely underrated. Duke Pearson and Lou Donaldson are the unsung heroes in the BN story, as I understand it. I do not necessarily think that the 1500 series is superior to later series, but I can definitely understand why others would. In general, instrumental tone is very important to me, not as important as the music and performance in the more general sense, but hugely important, so I gravitate towards the players with the most interesting sound even if they are not the most technically proficient. The older I get, the more I enjoy (and relate to) spiritual jazz, even though spirituality is not something I generally emphasize in my life.

    I can elaborate much, much more if you want, but I've got to run now and you people have got to be sick of my ramblings today by now. Anyway, need to finish up work quickly b/c my BT copy finally got dropped off! My first vinyl copy of BT ever, so no audiophiliac comparisons from me, unless you want comparisons to the CDs I've listened to for decades.
     
  6. ShamPain

    ShamPain Well-Known Member

    Location:
    IN, USA
    I think where we would agree is that the stature of BT grew as the stature of Coltrane grew. I would argue that it plays a non-insignificant part of the growth of Coltrane's stature, but definitely not the entire part.

    I'm just saying that BN must have benefited enormously from having this record on the label, in many ways, if it's their best-selling record of all time. Very few independent jazz labels had a record that penetrated the wider culture the way that BT did. Most of the BN releases have probably sold less than 5,000 copies, this one sold well more than 100 times that number. Most jazz records never get repressed at all, or maybe once per decade; this one has 279 different entries on Discogs.

    The fact that Alligator Boogaloo -- an album I love and have an original press of, but which only diehard jazz fans have any familiarity with whatsoever -- is one of the other contenders for "biggest BN album" says it all, IMO.

    There's BT, and then there's everything else. That doesn't make it the best record in and of itself, but it's relevant for the conversation. As evidence by the fact that Don and Joe are making a huge exception to do the Tone Poet issues of BT in the first place. The Sidewinder, Moanin', Something Else... none of the others are getting this treatment. Just BT. That tells us something about its importance to BN.
     
    mktracy and MisterBritt like this.
  7. Eamon

    Eamon Forum Resident

    I thought the sidewinder was the biggest selling BN not blue train.
     
    Aeryn Sun likes this.
  8. Josquin des Prez

    Josquin des Prez Forum Resident

    I finally got around to listening to both stereo and mono BTs (but not the outtakes just yet). The stereo wins hands down for me. In fact, I doubt I’ll listen to the mono again, except to compare to the MMJ SRX I have. I’ll see one or even both, but most likely end up keeping the TP.

    In other news, I’m giving some thought to replacing my subs (now that I have covered my ass on a new phono cartridge). I have a pair of REL R-328 (discontinued a long time ago) and thinking about selling those and getting a pair of the current REL S/510. I’ve heard these at my dealer and they are indeed pretty awesome, and dip a bit lower down (-6db at 20Hz) than the R-328 I have. My loudspeakers are +-3 db at 28Hz.
     
    mktracy and rcsrich like this.
  9. Crush87

    Crush87 Forum Resident

    Location:
    New York
    I think the only truly satisfied people are those who bought both mono and stereo and know which one they want to sell/retire to the shelf :laugh: the rest of us are dealing with a grass is greener situation
     
  10. Aeryn Sun

    Aeryn Sun Forum Resident

    Location:
    fairfax, va, usa
    I have two excel sheets, one for Tone Poets, and the other for the Classics since 2019. If someone could tell me how to post them here I can.
     
  11. dastinger

    dastinger Forum Resident

    Location:
    Portugal
    I'm pretty sure it is.
     
    mktracy, Eamon and Josquin des Prez like this.
  12. Mark J

    Mark J Forum Resident

    Location:
    Boca Raton, FL USA
    I'm just saying a lot of this is not reflecting it's sales or impact in the 1950s or early 1960s, but later, when Coltrane became a mythical figure known beyond jazz, which probably started while he was at Impulse and certainly after his untimely death.
     
  13. Josquin des Prez

    Josquin des Prez Forum Resident

    I really didn’t need to buy the mono. I just did it. When I think about what I’ve put on my HELOC this year for home repairs and improvements it’s nothing. LOL
     
  14. ETSEQ

    ETSEQ Forum Resident

    Location:
    Frederick, MD
    Ok, I think I was being imprecise and, since I'm not an expert, relying on what I read on some websites that were also imprecise (I used to play drums I was vaguely recalling conversations with piano players and horn players years ago about Moment's Notice and tunes like that, but I never got advanced enough harmony to play any of these songs myself on piano). I guess it would be more accurate to say Moment's Notice and Lazy Bird are two tunes where Coltrane started to really experiment with crazy ii-V substitutions, which then got further developed into what became the "Coltrane changes" on Giant Steps (though I gather there is a modulation down a major third in Lazy Bird?).

    This piano player has an interesting piece on his blog breaking down Moment’s Notice, Lazy Bird, Giant Steps, and Countdown, which he groups together and calls "Coltrane's Substitution Tunes."
     
  15. Joti Cover

    Joti Cover Forum Resident

    E.S.P. is tied for me w KoB…..yeah, when you’re that good it’s hard to choose.
     
    timzigs and Aura like this.
  16. Jasonbraswell

    Jasonbraswell Vinylphile

    Location:
    Guntersville
    Coltrane Plays The Blues is an overlooked sleeper.
    Playing the BG45 from ORG now while my Train outtakes disc dries.

    Recorded around the same session as My Favorite Things and you can pick up similar notes on Mr. Day.
     
  17. Aura

    Aura Forum Resident

    Location:
    Austin, Texas
    I just purchased the Impex release of E.S.P. Looking forward to it. The MoFi is lackluster (EDIT: soundstage flatter and lacks depth compared to other MoFi 'second quintet' releases), but I actually found it preferable to the original mastering. I think the original recording wasn't a stellar one so it should be interesting to hear the Impex AAA release.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2022
    Jasonbraswell and Joti Cover like this.
  18. Aura

    Aura Forum Resident

    Location:
    Austin, Texas
    Also, Ken Burns mentioned upthread... So he only got jazz 50% complete. One wonders what else he only gets 50% complete. Potentially quite a lot.
     
  19. Josquin des Prez

    Josquin des Prez Forum Resident

    I have both the Impex and MoFi. They both sound great, but the MoFi sounds better. It’s not lackluster at all on my rig. One of my all-time favorite Miles albums.
     
    Jam757, mktracy, Joti Cover and 3 others like this.
  20. Crush87

    Crush87 Forum Resident

    Location:
    New York
    I don’t hear “lackluster” on my MoFi ESP at all
     
    Jam757, mktracy, Aura and 1 other person like this.
  21. Aura

    Aura Forum Resident

    Location:
    Austin, Texas
    Awesome, thanks for that feedback. I'm not completely disappointed in the MoFi. To further clarify, compared to the other (second quintet) pressings in the MoFi series, I found it to be slightly flatter in the soundstage. That is likely just the source and original recording at fault. Being 45 rpm, the MoFi cut may just be better in general than the Impex, despite the DSD64 step.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2022
  22. Josquin des Prez

    Josquin des Prez Forum Resident

    The Impex is quite good too, although not everyone agrees with me. Nevertheless, I reach for the Mofi when I want to listen.
     
    mktracy and Aura like this.
  23. Dubmart

    Dubmart Senior Member

    Location:
    Bristol, England
    I think he was led astray by someone with an agenda, he still should have known better or consulted more widely, though.
     
    420JJJazz666 likes this.
  24. rcsrich

    rcsrich Forum Resident

    Location:
    Virginia
    Good point. I usually avoid doing this kind of thing, but bought both and am glad I did.
     
    Dartman likes this.
  25. rcsrich

    rcsrich Forum Resident

    Location:
    Virginia
    Love the BG 33 of this. In fact, love all the BG 33 Coltrane Atlantics. Good stuff!
     
    Jasonbraswell likes this.

Share This Page

molar-endocrine