'Tone Poet' Jazz Reissue Series*

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by cds23, Dec 23, 2018.

  1. BendBound

    BendBound Forum Resident

    Location:
    Bend, OR
    That's a bridge too far for some folks. Thus the intense arguments.
     
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  2. recstar24

    recstar24 Senior Member

    Location:
    Glen Ellyn, IL
    What I don’t understand is there are people that go into that thread just to say “I don’t hear it”. Like ok what’s the point lol.

    just checked into the thread and I have to admit there’s some quality discussion there albeit of the very technical nature. It was cool to see KG give permission for a response to be posted as well as a breakdown of all the Apple to Apple comparisons which exhibit no speed vs speed issues.
     
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  3. eflatminor

    eflatminor Forum Resident

    Location:
    Nevada
    By the by...

    If you're a fan, I found 'Joe Henderson – The State of the Tenor: Live at the Village Vanguard, Volume II' to be fabulous musically and even better sonically.

    Will definitely look to pick up Volume I in 2020. Not sure why II came out before I???
     
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  4. BendBound

    BendBound Forum Resident

    Location:
    Bend, OR
    Vol. 1 was released in the 75BN series. Tone Poet is releasing it with better packaging, plus.
     
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  5. flatsix-

    flatsix- Low End Theorist

    Location:
    Las Vegas
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  6. Harrison

    Harrison Forum Resident

    Location:
    Denmark
    A group of a half dozen? May I inquire how you got to that number?

    There have been 96 different posters in the dedicated thread about the issues. About 50 forum members are continously active in the thread. 44 different people have posted that they hear the issue clearly and most are either returning some albums, regret that they bought an album or are thinking of abandoning the series partly or entirely. 17 people in the thread have posted that they find the issue very minor or can't hear it at all.

    Recently there have been someone insinuating that "only a handful of people" or " a few fanatics" or "fetishists" are talking about pitch problems with these reissues. Since the subject about pitch problems or flutter first turned up in these threads, more than 100 different forum members have in fact voiced criticism and reported a level of dissatisfaction with the TP and BN80 because of pitch issues/flutter/warble.

    Personally I don't think it matters exactly how many people are posting about it. That number would have no connection to what might be the truth of the matter or for seeking an explanation. There could very well be hundreds of people reading these threads with a critical opinion who don't want to join the discussion. Thousands of people have bought these records. What people at large think of these products one way or the other could be anybody's guess.

    But to claim that only a "handful of people" on this forum are bothered be these issues would in my opinion be without merit given the information available.
     
  7. Giorgiovinyl

    Giorgiovinyl Forum Resident

    Location:
    Italy
    The Blue Note Tone Poet Serie has been so successful that has been confirmed for the next 3-4 years. Sales has been ten thousand units per title, an exceptional number for an "audiophile" record in a single year.
    44 people is not even the 1% of the buyers.
    All the reviews were enthusiastic not only in the audiophiles press but in rock magazines like Mojo, Record Collector or Shindig.
    Only half dozen at maximum are writing bad reviews on Discogs, Amazon, and now on Analog Planet. They are always the same people.
     
  8. Eric_B

    Eric_B Forum Resident

    Location:
    Minnesota
    According to Michael Cuscuna, these LT covers were an effort by United Artists-era BN brass to imitate the ECM aesthetic, since ECM was so hot at the time. But they look like an imitation created by someone who never actually saw any ECM albums. "Black sans serif typeface you say? Abstract cover image you say? Done, boom, here you go."

    Learned this from the Cuscuna episode of the Vinyl Guide podcast, which is a good listen: Ep173: Michael Cuscuna of Mosaic Records - | The Vinyl Guide podcast | Interviews for Record Collectors & Music Fans

     
  9. BendBound

    BendBound Forum Resident

    Location:
    Bend, OR
    To go from originator to imitator under new ownership tells me the UA folks who acquired BN from Liberty did not know what they had. They did not know how to market it. They purchased it to add reserves to use an oil & gas phrase. They squandered opportunities left and right trying to figure out how to make a buck, abandoned all that made Blue Note great. They demonstrated "deworseification" to borrow a term from strategic planning but they did keep the presses going for jazz at a time when jazz was struggling for a market, except for ECM. They carried on in the 1970s with the deep BN series, two-fers, with a complete abandonment of the historic BN labels. EMI purchased UA and began to release from the catalog, revived the Liberty label. There was a last gasp in the 1980s in a fairly extensive series of releases on the ECM copy covers noted. Then to make matters worse, since they had no creativity of their own, like what so ever, the next new owners began to use third parties to release the old catalogue, starting fortunately with Mosaic (entire catalog releases, not titles per se), EMI France, DMM, and the Japanese who never flagged on their love of Blue Note jazz, Scorpio (a massive phenomenal low), Classic, then finally Analogue Productions, Music Matters, Heavenly Sweetness, and others as we know. AP and MM treated the music with great respect.

    When the musician-producer Don Was took over in 2012 as Blue Note’s president, “The mission was to keep the Blue Note aesthetic alive, and carry it forward,” he said in a NYT phone interview. What does that mean, exactly? What is jazz today, when the genre seems to have gone astray? Not sure how much new jazz you folks listen to, I try to stay current. Consider that in the past few years, the terrific BN pianists Robert Glasper and Jason Moran both declined to renew their contracts after well over a decade on Blue Note. Arguably artists see reduced benefits in a legacy organization with the tagline “The Finest in Jazz Since 1939.”

    At that point, however, Music Matters had raised the bar. Don Was wanted BN to be great again, signed new artists, for example Ryan Adams, like that was going to revive a jazz label. Excuse me Don, for being jaded. But MM really did raise the bar and created a substantial following for properly done reissues of BN jazz. The 75BN has been a disappointment as we know, not in titles per se, but in execution. Now BN in the BN80 and TP series has taken the baton from MM (perhaps in more ways than one, someone may know), and again the new owners on the backs of the hard work of others is forging ahead. We are seeing some great music that really may not have been in the wheelhouse of Ron Rambach at MM. At some point, I'd like to see BN take jazz as a musical form more seriously, like for example, ECM with Vijay Iyer or Kamasi Washington on Young Turks (owned by the British Beggars Group) label.

    Unfortunately, a small cloud overhangs these two aforementioned series in wobble-gate, or whatever its called. From what I have read, Kevin Gray checked his equipment completely, all within speck by like an order of magnitude lower in wow and flutter than some industry standards. Rumor has it too, completely guessing, that somehow at UMG, the master tapes were mishandled. Who knows. Fortunately, most folks—not all—are just happy to see vintage BN music treated this well, and listen past the issues. As a friend of mine has repeated told me, "There is more to jazz than Blue Note."
     
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  10. geddy402

    geddy402 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Mid Atlantic
    Very excited for the 2020 releases! Even more excited to continue living an ignorantly blissful existence where I don’t hear pitch or warble issues on any of the releases!
     
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  11. Dean R

    Dean R Forum Resident

    I think you're being a little harsh.
    UA in the 70s were in the position that most labels were in when it came to straight jazz, it didn't sell, so they did what they could, and in letting Michael into the vaults and releasing the LT series - many of which sound very good even if the aesthetic was poor - did more than most. My copy of Grant Green's Solid sounds incredible as does my ETC - remember these were AAA cuts if that is important to you
    From 1984/5 Blue Note and the label's revival by Bruce Lundvall, the label was treated as a crown jewel amongst EMI's catalogue, with Bruce's knack of signing million selling records meaning it was kept safe from all sorts of corporate shenanigans whilst reissuing a vast majority of the catalogue and almost everything worth having in the vaults.
    The love that both Bruce and Michael had/ have for the label, and the meant that it went from being one of three historical New York indies - and commercially probably the least successful behind both Prestige and Riverside - to a by-word for jazz quality.
    That work means that today releases that when I started buying Blue Note were considered marginal - Lou Donaldson Mr Shing A Ling, Andrew Hill records - are viable on multiple formats and styles of releases.
    Whilst Music Matters is super high quality, releases made under the Connoisseur Series in the 90s were no slouches.
     
  12. BendBound

    BendBound Forum Resident

    Location:
    Bend, OR
    Thank you. Complicating my "harsh" view, and I know it is, the quality of vinyl from the 1970s (oil embargo days) declined. It is widely noted (see LondonJazzCollector) that the overall quality of BN releases declined after that period. DMM was supposed to be awesome, but most sound a bit flat, for technical reasons related in a small part to stylus rack angle. I have a lot of LT covers, blue-white, blue black labels, two-fers, so I do know. Admittedly, the audience for jazz took a nose dive, as progressive rock, heavy metal, southern rock, new wave, and punk rock and other forms of pop took off. My assessment comes from my days in M&A...I've seen the story before. That did not stop me in the early 1980s from trekking down to the Bay Area to see great jazz, a lot from the BN-Prestige greats. I don't like being negative, but the record labels have not been the most creative when it comes to new trends; stories about how they treat artists are stuff of legend. Why would UA or EMI or UMG be different? They weren't and that was my point.

    I began that post in response to an observation by others that the LT series artwork was a poor imitation of ECM. It was. My fundamental point was the catalog is money. The Blue Note label is money. Music Matters showed how to differentiate the product into a premium niche (using MBA speak) to make sales. It worked brilliantly. Now that MM has pioneered the style, created the subcontractor base for artwork and printing, and worked out many of the QC issues with RTI or whomever does the pressings, Blue Note has taken over with a guiding hand from Joe Harley, a partner in MM. That is absolutely true. I have no idea if MM tried to continue the series but BN-EMI may have made it too costly. Blue Note's attempt at a modern reissue program secured wide scorn from just about every poster here (and elsewhere), even as I have about 20 titles. They are just okay and I treat them as placeholders. The issue — pressing problems. That is absolutely true. And finally, BN has not entirely captured the magic on modern jazz, as I noted in post about two artists who are phenomenal. Don Was is working it and I applaud him for it. But I am also willing to tell him he needs to work a bit harder.

    Granted, my note, my view is blunt, and I was not in the board room on this one. But I have been a keen observer of the industry in a Michael Porter kind of way for a long, long time. And that is where I am coming from.
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2019
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  13. Dean R

    Dean R Forum Resident

    Whilst it's nice to pay complements to Don and Joe, Blue Note wouldn't exist or be as well regarded if it wasn't for the work that Michael did from the 70s onwards at UA, and Bruce did from 1984 onwards at EMI. They loved the label treated it with respect and in Bruce's case made the Blue Note division enough money that its catalogue could be treated right.

    As to the quality of the cuts, even LJC says they were variable not bad, and from the mid-80s quality was always paramount. You may find DMM flat, but at the time it was more expensive and considered to be the best way to cut records. Fashions change and now everyone wants AAA, which happened at Blue Note in the mod-90s.

    It's great that Tone Poet and Blue Note 80 exist, but it is a continuation from what has been going on for 40 years now, when Blue Note's catalogue has been treated better than almost any other major owned asset.
     
  14. BendBound

    BendBound Forum Resident

    Location:
    Bend, OR
    I agree. MC work was essential in keeping the flame alive. I have a lot of his Mosaic sets and the CDs he was involved in. Bruce did a great job too in the brilliant 85100 series. I was disappointed that the mojo of BN artwork was lost. The new owners may have considered the frequent changes to be an improvement. They were not. That is where we started this conversation.

    AAA is tough since who records on tape anymore. And vintage tape is vintage. As we hear, it has issues if not treated with kid gloves.

    I am super excited about the 80BN and TP series.
     
  15. paulmock

    paulmock Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hollywood, CA
    Don't know if this has been mentioned already but Blue Note's 30% off deal has a delivery caveat. My 1st order arrived within 2 weeks as all LP's had already been released. My next order included some of the TP's that are not due for release till late January. I received my confirmation and noticed that all LP's are scheduled for shipping on Jan. 23. For me, that's OK as I have enough "new" music to get me thru the post Holiday weeks. But if someone is expecting multiple shipments as the LP's are released, they are going to be disappointed.
     
  16. brimuchmuze

    brimuchmuze Forum Resident

    It's a good list of titles.

    I am a little disappointed there is no Andrew Hill.

    Also I was hoping for some Ornette Coleman, Larry Young, and another Wayne Shorter.

    Maybe 2021 :)
     
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  17. Eric_B

    Eric_B Forum Resident

    Location:
    Minnesota
    +1 As a jazz fan, it's nearly as painful to imagine a world where MC never entered the Blue Note universe as it is to imagine a world where Lion and Wolff never founded Blue Note in the first place.

    And however questionable some of their sonic or aesthetic choices might appear from our vantage point, at least the folks at UA had the good sense to bring MC into the fold and let him do his thing.

     
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  18. aoxomoxoa

    aoxomoxoa I'm an ear sitting in the sky

    Location:
    USA
    I only notice the warble when I'm drinking :D
     
  19. ThomasL

    ThomasL Forum Resident

    Location:
    Copenhagen
    This is the Japanese version of ETC. Track list is identical except for one track “The Collector” replacing “ Toy Tune” from the US-release

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2019
  20. SJR

    SJR Big Boss Man

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  21. KipB

    KipB Forum Resident

    Location:
    Bethel, CT, USA
    I came across the Blue Note tocj -6663 cd of Indestructible the other day—a couple weeks after I found the regular US 80s McMasters cd - all I can say is where has this set been all my life? Don’t hurt em, Art! Great stuff ...
     
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  22. andrewskyDE

    andrewskyDE Island Owner

    Location:
    Europe
    I got Introducing Kenny Burrell today. Wow, the package is very nice, glossy gatefold sleeve!!
    The record sounds great, too. Although it's sometimes a tiny bit noisy in the background.
     
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  23. Johan1880

    Johan1880 Forum Resident

    Location:
    The Netherlands
    Not sure this was posted before but this great video was published earlier this week:

     
  24. streaming right now McCoy Tyner Tender Moments , such a Beautiful album, really really amazing, this will be a great companion to MMZ McCoy Tyner Real McCoy
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2019
  25. BendBound

    BendBound Forum Resident

    Location:
    Bend, OR
    I was so delighted to see this one on the TP list. I have purchased a few used copies but track noise and untimely pops have marred it. It will be great to have a really clean copy. Only I am already not looking forward to what other folks may hear in the piano.
     

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