'Tone Poet' Jazz Reissue Series*

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by cds23, Dec 23, 2018.

  1. rxcory

    rxcory proud jazz band/marching band parent

    Location:
    Portland, Oregon
    London Jazz Collector is a more reliable source of information than Discogs. :cheers:
     
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  2. dastinger

    dastinger Forum Resident

    Location:
    Portugal
    You're doing a better job than I am though. I'm basing what I'm saying purely on the label cheat sheet from London Jazz Collector:

    [​IMG]
    But I read more into it HERE and it seems like he's merely using the date Liberty acquired Blue Note to determine 1966 as the date. On the same text, he says that the first time Liberty was mentioned on the labels was on Andrew Hill's Andrew!!! that, even though it was recorded in 64, it was only released in 1968.

    On the other hand, he could be considering new albums only and not reissues, so I guess we won't know unless someone has that stereo Byrd release and a date is mentioned somewhere. I'll reach out to someone who might have it and ask.
     
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  3. DeRosa

    DeRosa Vinyl Forever

    I plan to hunt through some examples, but the time labels would have been printed as a first step in the manufacturing process,
    even before the records can be pressed, and long before the release date, sometimes by quite some time if the actual release date or release order was changed.
    As noted on the LJC site, labels can be a tricky piece of the puzzle to date a release.

    from LJC:
    Confounding factors


    Among small cost-conscious independent labels like Blue Note it was common manufacturing practice to hold stocks of record labels and covers in the inventory. If a record sold well, more vinyl would be pressed, and the second pressing run would use up the existing stock of labels and covers before incurring the cost of printing more. As a result, older labels can be found on newer pressings. Even 767 Lexington labels (1956) can be found on Liberty pressings (1966).

    Blue Note changed its operating address several times over the decade. The address found on the bottom of the back cover changed accordingly, which can help date the cover manufacture. However covers were taken from stock, so covers do not necessarily date the record inside. Blue Note inventory passed on to Liberty included corporate inner sleeves, including a stockpile of the last inner sleeve, “27 Years of”. Legacy metalwork mothers and stampers were often brought into use for further pressing, decades later, though under Liberty, West Coast reissue pressings were often remastered locally from copy tape. Lastly, it is not unknown for sellers of Blue Note to add a Blue Note inner sleeve from a different time, to make up for a missing inner sleeve.
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2020
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  4. Dean R

    Dean R Forum Resident

    I may drop LJC a line on this, because that is a bit confusing.
    Looking at the new releases the Liberty label was definitely in use by the time Lou Donaldson's Aligator Boogaloo came out in 67, but other titles such as Andrew and one of the Don Cherry's came out in 67 with New York labels.
    I think dating that Donald Byrd to 66 is unlikely, I suspect - with the use of the reprocessed for stereo thing that appeared on a number of releases we're looking at 68, but definitely not before 67.
     
  5. DeRosa

    DeRosa Vinyl Forever

    here's an example, the repress of Freddie Hubbard's Blue Spirit was 1966, with liberty labels.
    The first press from 1965 had new york labels

    [​IMG]
     
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  6. dastinger

    dastinger Forum Resident

    Location:
    Portugal
    I reached out to an avid Blue Note first pressings collector that makes a living out of dealing jazz records.

    There's no date mentioned on the first Stereo pressing. It wasn't common practice and that is no exception.

    According to him, it was pretty normal for Mono and Stereo pressings to be released years apart (like other users have stated here) and, even though the date will always be an estimate, he made an educated guess that the stereo Byrd in Flight was released in 1967 since that was the year the Stereo liberty label started appearing in other albums.

    He also mentioned that in Fred Cohen's book, there is no mention of a Stereo copy ever being released before Liberty took over so that is actually the first Stereo pressing.

    To wrap this up, he also confirmed that, even though the electronically re-channeled nomenclature is mentioned, the record plays true stereo.
     
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  7. Dean R

    Dean R Forum Resident

    I understand all that, but it isn't relevant here.
    The question isn't when did Liberty take over Blue Note, but when did they start to use Liberty labels.
    All evidence I can find shows it was a year later in 1967, unless anyone has a 1966 Blue Note record with a Division Of Liberty on it, it seems that was the start date.
     
  8. Dean R

    Dean R Forum Resident

    Yes, but all records that remained in print ended up with those labels, but when?
     
  9. DeRosa

    DeRosa Vinyl Forever

    It's an impossible question to answer, unless the date of purchase can be confirmed.
    Discogs and Ebay aren't hard evidence.
     
  10. Dean R

    Dean R Forum Resident

    Labels, records and research are how these things are uncovered.
    There’s a whole lot of all three that suggest that the Byrd stereo isn’t from 66.
    I was just asking of there was anything other than a Discogs entry to suggest that it was.
    Ultimately not the most crucial piece of info, but these sort of things are interesting to me.
     
  11. DeRosa

    DeRosa Vinyl Forever

    yes, but you need hard enough evidence without any counter examples to make any kind of certain determination,
    as LJC and Richard have done many times.

    At this point, it think it's two different questions,
    what amount of evidence there is to date the use of Liberty labels, and what is the likelihood
    that 4048 Donald Byrd Byrd in Flight came out in 1966, when the mono came out in 1961.

    For what it's worth, many of the stereo titles from the 50/50 era (4000-4075ish) don't have a release date
    listed in the database, just the first issue monos. I think dating the stereo version is very uncertain.
    Blue Note Records: A Collector’s Guide to Mono & Stereo | Deep Groove Mono
     
  12. DeRosa

    DeRosa Vinyl Forever

    I would think labelling Byrd in Flight as electronically re-channel stereo was an administrative error.
    (not unlike MMJ issuing the wrong catalog numbers a couple of times, mixing up mono and stereo)

    The only titles that would need to be re-done in fake stereo were the ones with only a full track mono master.
    Anything recorded in 50/50 wouldn't need to be done in fake stereo, the single master is real stereo.
     
  13. Dean R

    Dean R Forum Resident

    LJC hasn't really offered any evidence of the Liberty label usage starting in 66 - in fact that cheat sheet contradicts what he says within many of his articles.
    If a label started using new labels, the chances are they would turn up on new releases, and no 1966 release shows a Liberty label and in fact only releases that came out after Alfred Lion left the label in 1967 seem to show that.
    As to the Byrd, there is no pre-Liberty stereo release - or at least not one that has ever been seen - and it is clear from the version shown on discogs that a new Liberty era sleeve was created for it.
    So whilst I agree the dating is uncertain, it can't be before the usage of the Liberty label.
    Why the stereo didn't happen in the early sixties is a mystery though.
     
  14. Dean R

    Dean R Forum Resident

    They also labelled some mono recordings as electronically re-channeled stereo, but just left them mono. IIRC The Cooker was one.
     
  15. Crazysteve

    Crazysteve Gonzo Party Member

    I have the Byrd in Flight in question - 1st stereo issue. It sounds fantastic and it’s my understanding, as some of you have mentioned, that the stereo tapes were used, rather than the marketing hype hinted to on the top right back cover. No Van Gelder stamp as mentioned as well. I tried my best on the photos, but got lost as to what the actual questions are about this copy.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  16. Dean R

    Dean R Forum Resident

    I missed the bit about it not having Van Gelder stamps, I think that completely rules out 66 and the first part of 67, as I don't think there was any release from this period where Alfred Lion didn't ue Rudy
     
  17. Crazysteve

    Crazysteve Gonzo Party Member

    It’s my understanding that Rudy’s tapes were obviously used, but Liberty used a different pressing plant from Plastylite. Thus, Rudy was not involved in the actual pressing and therefore his stamp wasn’t used. That doesn’t rule out that it was pressed in ‘66.
     
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  18. DeRosa

    DeRosa Vinyl Forever

    I couldn't speak to this without more research

    What other angle can we take to put this in context?
    It appears there are other titles from the same era as the 4048 Byrd that also didn't get stereo version in a timely manner.
    4047 is Art Taylor A.T.'s Delight, and according to discogs, the first stereo was the Toshiba in 1977.
    4046 is Duke Jordan Flight to Jordan, the first stereo on discogs has United Artists labels.
    I think this is more evidence that stereo's from this period came out later than the mid 60's.
     
  19. Dean R

    Dean R Forum Resident

    Liberty bought the label in 66, but Albert continued to run it, and always used Rudy.
    I think that there is not a chance that this stereo Byrd qas pressed in 66.
     
  20. DeRosa

    DeRosa Vinyl Forever

    That's a funny one, since there are both mono and two track tapes.
    Sounds like evidence that by the time the electronically re-channeled stereo was being planned or executed,
    they weren't exactly sure what was going on! Maybe that makes sense because the whole idea of it seems so misguided.
     
  21. Dean R

    Dean R Forum Resident

    I think we may be talking at cross purposes here, I’m not doubting that thos came out later, just that 1966 didn’t match the record as a date.
     
  22. DeRosa

    DeRosa Vinyl Forever

    Didn't i read on LJC that some without the stamp were west coast pressings?
    There are some differences between the lettering the labels of the East and West pressings,
    we should check that.
     
  23. DeRosa

    DeRosa Vinyl Forever

    i thought we were on the same page.
    I was looking for some logical and evidence to support the idea that some of the monos from this era only received later stereo reissues.
     
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  24. Dean R

    Dean R Forum Resident

    You did, but I think those began to happen around the same time as the West Coast dark blue / light blue label number 9 above.
     
  25. DeRosa

    DeRosa Vinyl Forever

    I think the context is here.
    Blue Note “originals” without the Plastylite “ear”

    Can't say if it was in the second half of 1966,
    but it would appear to be somewhere in there, '67, '68?
     
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