I will try and speak to this, more from just my observation than being told from the source so to speak. Someone please chime in and correct me where needed. It was my understanding that the BN 80th line came about was of course the anniversary and to provide more BN Jazz titles at affordable prices for folks to be able to buy. Of course Kevin Gray was the obvious choice because of the results (plus I'm glad he was the choice). Plus I'm sure Don Was wanted him at the controls. I don't think it takes an eternity to master vinyl records, and as we know, Keven never takes anytime off. So having Kevin do both lines seemed natural. By the way, the man has done some amazing Rock releases over the years that are fantastic! I will say this though and I hope I don't open a you know what here, but I think overall the Tone Poet's sound a bit better sonic wise over them. Of course it depends on the title. And I'm not about to say there have never been issues, but because of my health (no complaints) I try and stay as positive and as relaxed as can be with my music, while respecting what others have to say. The interesting thing here is that Tone Poets go through RTI and BN 80th at Optimal.
I don’t recall any hints for 2021, but there were hints for 2020 that didn’t come to pass, like Jackie McLean’s Demon’s Dance, Ornette Coleman’s Love Call, and Andrew Hill’s Dance With Death.
Maybe those will happen...we can cross our fingers I guess. And those might have been what I was thinking in regards to 2021...hard to keep track of all of the great music that has come or coming out.
Not meaning to be the contrarian here, but there are a good number of BN titles that are not considered "classic" by the general public which deserve to be reissued and given the Tone Poet treatment. I understand the need for releases that are virtually guaranteed to be commercial successes (what ever that means in this segment of the business) but the "classic" era was but one of BN's great eras. It was a great foundation that sustained other great music.
Thank you! It's the heart and soul of the Tone Poet releases right now. I for one really like getting titles that deserved treatment like this. There have been some I had never even listened to much or at all before and now dig the heck out of them! Introducing and Face To Face as two great examples.
I agree. I didn't mean only the classics (just the classics that are currently being issued by other companies). I love that they are reissuing lesser known catalogs and those that have not been reissued on vinyl for decades (or the first time). I would like to see Blue Note take all of it back in-house and reissue them with the Tone Poet treatment.
I 100% agree which is why I asked the question. Sonically I think the TPs are distinctive from the BN80s, they all have a certain quality about them that sets them apart from the BN80s. The $64k question is what achieves this and why? ie why not do the ‘business’ on all of them? The whole process is the same inc plating except for the pressing and Optimal aren’t poor by any stretch. Joe’s input clearly adds a lot to the overall presentation which I love but I would have thought with so many titles mastered over so many years Kevin could recreate this in his sleep by now. On KG’s rock work, yes I agree. I have a ton of it and KG/SH too in fact I’m pretty new to his Jazz work coming in at MMJ33; thank goodness he’s an MDC lacquers man!
Is it possible the cheaper bn 80s are intended for general public consumption so a more neutral sonic signature would result in cheap systems and cartridges tracking better. The Tone Poet higher price point is targeted at audiophiles so they can allow greater dynamic cutting as the audience is expected to have equipment that can handle it. It may be a cheap rig today can handle the tone poets but I just dont know
the curators influence definitely is a factor (don vs joe), and Kevin is rock solid consistent in his work IMO. So that leaves the pressing plant, as I believe the lacquers are cut at the same place (RTI, which possibly also does the plating for BN80 as well). I’ve been happy with both plants regarding pressing, however I will say out of the small sample size of Bn80s I have, the pressing quality has been amazing - perfectly flat, perfectly cut slightly beveled edges, perfect centering/labeling. My go to reference for vinyl pressing voodoo is the Bernie Grundman podcast interview on the Vinyl Guide podcast. He believes strongly in the differences in sound between various pressing machines.
This wouldn't make any sense at all. The entire point of the BN80 series was to do a much better job with them. The 75th series is always there for the folks with cheap systems.
Yeah maybe so , im just floating the idea. However i thought some members here felt that the sound was actually pretty good on the 75s but the pressings were awful. I dont know maybe those here who bought some can say. Im not saying the 80s were supposed to be inferior then TPs. Im saying maybe the mastering and or cutting on the 80s is a little more conservative then the TPs. For me they both sound great but i think the TPs are a little more dynamic ... hense trying to tie that sound to a business rationale and cheaper systems used to have big problems with audiophile level bass for instance. Im just guessing of course but its an interesting question. Maybe @recstar24 is correct and the pressings can make a difference to sound. Ill have to read what he just posted as i had no idea that could occur
I absolutely agree pressings can make a difference in the sound. So nice post from @recstar24 above and you as well!
No doubt about that. I think Tone Poet should run its course BUT alongside another series. For the good of jazz and Blue Note, those classic titles should ALWAYS be available if someone wants to buy them. And they should be done right. How many grey market reissues do you see each time you visit a record store that has new stock? If Blue Note done the same records, which ones do you think would sell better? I think there's a huge opportunity here that should be grabbed by BN and I'm sure a lot of titles would sell like hot cakes.
Even though Don has come around and believes otherwise, many within the BN family would counter your argument saying that the BN75 series satisfies that need for the vast majority of the genera vinyl buying public. You can’t argue with the actual title curation of the BN75 series. However, better quality means more money, which may be tough to sell BN on moving forward.
Over the top, no way at all! What an awesome post (loved it big time)! And hope no one minds if I bring up these comments from Joe that I posted a while back. He really wanted me to make sure everyone was aware of this. Jack Arenas who is in charge of the tape library at Capitol allowed Joe and Kevin to gather all of the stray mono masters and assemble them they were originally attended to be heard. This is almost never allowed. Jack is a huge Chet fan and he said he could not think of two people being able to do it any better. So needless to say this record/version will be virtually impossible to beat. So no doubt Jack Arenas is the hero of this one! But I still have to give major kudos to Joe and Kevin for this sweet sounding record as well. I think I'm going to have to pull this one out for later today, been a while. Thanks Jack, for giving that access! If I was ever in there with all of those tapes, I would most likely just stand there in shock.
Making my way through my latest shipment from Blue Note and enjoying The Prisoner this morning. I was not familiar with this album at all beforehand and I’m loving it. It will get a second listening again later today. Beautiful compositions. Dense and complex, befitting this highly skilled nonet, but never cluttered. A heady, reflective vibe.
The obvious answer to your question of why not do the same treatment is that the majority of new vinyl buyers have a sweet spot of buying records under $25. When Bluenote did their 75 series it was done at the request of independent retailer record sellers who found that their customers wanted these Bluenote jazz records and at a price of around $20 which was the sweet spot. I find it more incredible that Bluenote actually decided do to their own upgraded series in the Tone Poets, going after a more audiophile customer but keeping the price somewhat more reasonable than the AP or MMJ brands.
I don’t agree. Different mastering choices don’t add to cost (JH works for BN so he’s not adding costs either). For sure the packaging does, so we could have the same sound as TP with the crappy jackets but we don’t. We have a great sounding record that is for some reason inferior IMO to the TPs. And to answer the point about cheap gear and tracking; we’re not talking the canons on the 1812 Overture or the ‘hot cut’ of LZ11 here, these tapes just aren’t that dynamic. And I seriously doubt the difference is the pressing plant used or their vinyl formula, that would be to Joe Harley a disservice by inference. I’m not trying to pick an argument here, I’m really interested to know what makes the difference between these two considering so much in the process is the same, that’s all.
No not mastering unless they have negotiated more time for TP over BN titles but different pressings plants have different pricing structures. Press checks can cost more or less too depending who may be on site representing the label. And one pressing plant is in California and the other in Germany as I understand. And yes the covers are a huge price difference.
I get that Optimal will cost less to BN but I don’t imagine for a moment that the differ in sound (which is solely what I’m talking about not the costs) has anything to do which plant is used other than surface noise; I have plenty of records from both plants and sometimes Optimal are quieter than RTI. No, I believe it’s by design for whatever reason but hey, they all sound great and they’re affordable and non-limited so what’s not to like eh?
I agree with Stu here. I have no inside info to this, but I believe the target markets for the two series are different. The 80th series is for a more general audience, and probably more basic equipment. The TP is geared towards audiophiles and the big boy carts. The pressing plant also plays a factor, but not to the degree of difference that I hear between the series. All my opinion, of course.
Im not sure if you saw my post above, but I’d highly recommend, if you listen to podcasts, to find the Bernie Grundman interview on the Vinyl Guide podcast. He goes into great detail on the differences he hears sonically between different pressing plants/machines, and talks about some of their characteristics that he’s observed. Many artists and producers can be quite picky about the pressing plant they use to press their record (while many others obviously could care less). If you didn’t want to bother listening to the aforementioned podcast, the long end of it is that a mastering engineer with a record as distinguished as Grundman’s hears clear differences between the handful of pressing machines currently in use.
With regards to reissuing the classics (essentially a BN75 do-over), I wonder what the bean counters think of that. All of the BN75s are still out there and easy to get. Who knows what the agreement is on those -- is United still actively pressing them? Once you reissue the classics, what happens to all the unsold BN75 product? Who is going to buy those (mostly) lousy things when a much better product is available for not much more money? Maybe they could dump them at $5-10 each, though I've already seen some on sale at amazon for as low as $10. And in a lot of the forums I follow, people want better pressings and aren't happy with the bad ones at any price.
I think the discussion is getting ahead of reality. There actually is no current "classic blue note" reissue program.
